Old Helm mystery...

BSMStar · 24th September 2006, 10:00 PM

Can anyone shed any light on this old helmet?

It is hallmarked.

ariel · 25th September 2006, 06:29 AM

I am not sure it is genuine. Not because I am an expert on helmets, but simply because of purely technical issues.
First, the cross (supposedly designed to protect the face) appears to be fixed. Noseguards were supposed to be moveable to facilitate putting the helmet on and taking it off.
Second, the neck guard is vertical: exceedingly uncomfortable with prolonged wear and, especially, during the battle (try to keep you neck stiff for a long time!)
These two features would not be a major problem for re-enacting (town parade etc), but would make life hell in real battle ( well, war is hell, anyway...).

BSMStar · 25th September 2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am not sure it is genuine. Not because I am an expert on helmets, but simply because of purely technical issues.
First, the cross (supposedly designed to protect the face) appears to be fixed. Noseguards were supposed to be moveable to facilitate putting the helmet on and taking it off.
Second, the neck guard is vertical: exceedingly uncomfortable with prolonged wear and, especially, during the battle (try to keep you neck stiff for a long time!)
These two features would not be a major problem for re-enacting (town parade etc), but would make life hell in real battle ( well, war is hell, anyway...).

Hi Ariel,

Point well taken. I have not notice any problem in putting the helmet on or taken it off, the neck guard just goes to the bottom of the skull (if you look up, it hits the back of the neck and may come off, it is a bit top heavy anyway). You can look side to side easily enough.

I have been told helmets like this have been made in the 1700-1800’s to refill “armories” as display pieces. The oxides look old enough for that time period. I was hoping that someone would recognize the hallmark.

The dealer that I purchased this from 20 to 30 years ago had 4 of these that he said came from an estate in Malta. I knew him well enough to not have a reason to disbelieve him. I bought the best of the four.

Laurie W · 25th September 2006, 09:37 PM

There is no telling if it's genuine or not. But if you bought these that many years ago, then probably more likely so.

Weight
Helmets were necessarily heavy from both manufacture and materials to protect the head. You did not say what gauge material this was made from. If you are not used to any kind of helmet on your head, it will feel heavy. However, your muscles will build up to increase stability and you will get used to it's feel. Ask any reenactor who fights wearing armour.

But nasels were not necessarily moveable but did jut out abit to conform with the slope of the nose. The skull would be oversized for using with padding (sponge, linen, leather, sheepskin et.c) for added protection. This would also raise the skull up just a tad to keep the backpiece from riding too low. (Yes, that highlighted spot looks like an "armourer's mark")

A lot of people are surprised at the weights armour and weaponry actually were as opposed to what is popularily thought.

A full mail hauberk could weigh up to 100lbs. A short sleeved byrnie could weigh 45lbs and it all hangs from your shoulders. Why belting was done to help hold up the weight. One of the advantages of plate was it's lesser weight overall and method of distribution. Outside of the specialized/heavier Tournament armour, a full harness would weigh about 65lbs or so. But then, a modern soldier would wear as much if not more with all his (or her) gear.

Tim Simmons · 25th September 2006, 09:55 PM

I am far from knowledgeable about ancient helms but I have to question the gauge of what looks like standard mild steel sheet. I do not like the rather undisciplined way of try to make a rolled edge. In my opinion this is 19th century if you are lucky.

Aqtai · 25th September 2006, 11:46 PM

I would say that is a (relatively) modern reproduction of what someone thought a Crusader helmet looked like.

24th September 2006, 10:00 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Old Helm mystery... Can anyone shed any light on this old helmet? It is hallmarked. Attached Images

25th September 2006, 09:55 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am far from knowledgeable about ancient helms but I have to question the gauge of what looks like standard mild steel sheet. I do not like the rather undisciplined way of try to make a rolled edge. In my opinion this is 19th century if you are lucky. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th September 2006 at 10:08 PM.

25th September 2006, 06:29 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am not sure it is genuine. Not because I am an expert on helmets, but simply because of purely technical issues. First, the cross (supposedly designed to protect the face) appears to be fixed. Noseguards were supposed to be moveable to facilitate putting the helmet on and taking it off. Second, the neck guard is vertical: exceedingly uncomfortable with prolonged wear and, especially, during the battle (try to keep you neck stiff for a long time!) These two features would not be a major problem for re-enacting (town parade etc), but would make life hell in real battle ( well, war is hell, anyway...).

25th September 2006, 09:37 PM	#4
Laurie W Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 11	There is no telling if it's genuine or not. But if you bought these that many years ago, then probably more likely so. Weight Helmets were necessarily heavy from both manufacture and materials to protect the head. You did not say what gauge material this was made from. If you are not used to any kind of helmet on your head, it will feel heavy. However, your muscles will build up to increase stability and you will get used to it's feel. Ask any reenactor who fights wearing armour. But nasels were not necessarily moveable but did jut out abit to conform with the slope of the nose. The skull would be oversized for using with padding (sponge, linen, leather, sheepskin et.c) for added protection. This would also raise the skull up just a tad to keep the backpiece from riding too low. (Yes, that highlighted spot looks like an "armourer's mark") A lot of people are surprised at the weights armour and weaponry actually were as opposed to what is popularily thought. A full mail hauberk could weigh up to 100lbs. A short sleeved byrnie could weigh 45lbs and it all hangs from your shoulders. Why belting was done to help hold up the weight. One of the advantages of plate was it's lesser weight overall and method of distribution. Outside of the specialized/heavier Tournament armour, a full harness would weigh about 65lbs or so. But then, a modern soldier would wear as much if not more with all his (or her) gear.

25th September 2006, 11:46 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I would say that is a (relatively) modern reproduction of what someone thought a Crusader helmet looked like.