an khanda sword

dralin23 · 29th June 2007, 11:00 PM

hi all
please tell me your opinion over these khanda sword. what think you from wich ct. is it?
i will not sell it

stefan

dralin23 · 29th June 2007, 11:02 PM

some more pics.

Valjhun · 29th June 2007, 11:31 PM

amazing.... one of the best khandas out there...

Are you considering to restore the padding? I will do it, if it were mine. Only the best red velvet couscions allowed

Rick · 30th June 2007, 12:08 AM

There appears to be something odd about the 'wootz' pattern ...

RobT · 30th June 2007, 05:27 AM

Hi All,
Rick's comment made me look at the pattern more closely and wonder whether it is the result of an acid etch on a wax resist rather than wootz. I have a kard whereon that technique was applied. If indeed the pattern was produced by acid etching unwatered steel, how was such a subtle pattern produced? From the looks of it, manually scraping away the resist wouldn't achieve such an intricate, random, and smoothly curved pattern of swirls (at least not cost effectively). So, if this pattern is a product of a wax resist, the question becomes, how was the resist etched to produce the pattern?
Sincerely,
RobT

CharlesS · 30th June 2007, 01:33 PM

This is certainly 'faux wootz'. Either acid etched or "waxed".

I have never understood the mentality of that(either) process as it was so time consuming and labor intensive, and often was a way of saying, "I can't afford real wootz". It seems the real thing would have actually been cheaper, but I suppose that labor and time were two things not in short supply in 19th Cent. India.

One thing for sure...it certainly shows the status and importance of a "wootz look".

Now, I have a question....I have heard these sorts of swords referred to in a variety of different ways. Is this a 'patissa' with a 'khanda' hilt, or is it a 'khanda' in general???

ward · 30th June 2007, 03:42 PM

I think if you look closely you will see some repetition in the pattern. make up a basic block stamp pour wax on and stamp it, and over stamp it. You have your pattern made up in less than 1/2 hour and then etch with acid. Once you have carved your stamp you can use it over and over, making it very cost effective

Jens Nordlunde · 30th June 2007, 04:01 PM

Hi Stefan,
Is it possible for you to get better pictures of the blade? Try outside like you did, but with a black background.

Hi Ward,
Yes I see what you mean, but this kind of ’false’ watering would wear off rather fast. I have not, in any of my books, seen described how to make ‘false’ watering, but I suppose it was done.

Rick · 30th June 2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes I see what you mean, but this kind of ’false’ watering would wear off rather fast. I have not, in any of my books, seen described how to make ‘false’ watering, but I suppose it was done.

Jens, if this is the case (false watering) would the lack of wear bring into question the actual age of this sword ?

Stefan, might we have the dimensions of this sword please ?

ward · 30th June 2007, 05:43 PM

It does not wear like that, if it is a parade weapon. As far as how long they have been doing this false damascus finish here is a excerpt from "Method of making Steel in the style of Damascus"

written in 1771

by Jean Jacques Perret

I have seen some hunting swords which were sold as damascus, but which I suspected not to be, in part because the blackish veins were too deep, and in part because their edges would not cut iron. Indeed their edges were so blunt and ill-shaped that they would not even cut wood. I tried to discover the method of "damascening" blades as boldly as these. After several trials I took a blade of polished steel and I covered it with a coating of wax, which I let drip from a lighted candle. I spread the wax evenly over the entire surface. Then I drew a quantity of lines in the wax, using a steel scribe which served me as a pencil. After that I poured some acid on the wax. I allowed it to bite or dissolve the steel which my "pencil" had uncovered for about an hour. I then cleaned it off, and found that I had discovered the whole secret.

katana · 30th June 2007, 05:53 PM

In one of the pictures, the 'patterning' seems to be 'raised'. Stefan if your rub your fingernail across the blade does it feel smooth or rough ?

The condition of the sword, overall, is exceptional, and, as has already been said, looks relatively new.

I took the liberty of enlarging and cropping one of the pictures of the blade

Tatyana Dianova · 30th June 2007, 07:48 PM

I believe I have seen this khanda once, but from some distance (2-3 meters). It looked quite impressive and large, maybe around 1 meter overall, and nice as well

As far as I remember, the gold looked not so newly made as on the pictures. It seems to me that we have to wait for some more pictures at least 1 week, until Stefan will come back from his vacation

.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th June 2007, 09:16 PM

Hi Rick,

You are, of course right, and I am wrong, the false watering shown on Katana’s pictures – if they are as deep as they seems – will of course not be worn as fast as real watering. As I can’t recall to have seen ‘false’ watering before, I would be glad if Stefan could show some better pictures.

Thank you Ward for the hint

.
Nice picture you made Katana

katana · 30th June 2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Nice picture you made Katana

[/font]

Thanks Jens...but I cannot take all the credit....Stefan provided excellent quality pictures

Valjhun · 1st July 2007, 07:08 PM

False wootz or we have a case of overacidification?

ALEX · 3rd July 2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

In one of the pictures, the 'patterning' seems to be 'raised'. Stefan if your rub your fingernail across the blade does it feel smooth or rough ?

The condition of the sword, overall, is exceptional, and, as has already been said, looks relatively new.

I took the liberty of enlarging and cropping one of the pictures of the blade

Katana has a very good point. Stefan, please inspect the surface of the blade closely for ANY uneven or raised formations. It also may appear as acid etch on the photo. As in the following close-up of an Indian Tegha: it is real wootz (an Indian wootz), but it appears as acid-etched on the picture.

galvano · 3rd July 2007, 05:51 PM

it is "dendritic wootz"
galvano

Battara · 3rd July 2007, 10:27 PM

I'm still in the "false wootz" camp. We need Ann, Rsword, or Artzi here on this one. I have seen wax resist patterns identical to these examples.

dralin23 · 9th July 2007, 09:05 PM

hi all,
at first sorry for the late answers from me, i was one week not at home!! and now,
thank you all for your answers and opinions because these sword. it was an great help for me even then i must listen that the blade is possible false wootz. maybe it is realy so. in the last days i looked in some books in the hope i can find such an wootz pattern but i must see that the typical wood like patern from true wootz steel isn´t at the surface from these blade. these pattern shows nearby like the pattern at the blade from the tegha from alex. you can feel it with the finger tips.
one question was (how is the lenght from these khanda) it is over all 91cm, the blade is 69cm and at the top it is 6,5cm wide. it shows not newly made and also the koftgari si not new made.you can find these khanda pattern in the book from a.c. tirri ( islamic arms) you can see some wear patern. i ask me why should used in such an mounting an false wootz blade?

rand · 31st July 2007, 02:52 AM

Is this the condition blade was in when you purchased it? Was there previously a light layer of rust that was removed? It may be the lighting, but the color of the metal looks a dull grey with no luster, not the hard shine of smooth metal I would expect, that could be caused from applying a rust remover like naval jelly to take rust from intricate goldwork.

The blade definately is false damascus, the color of the gold and the style of the decoration appear 19th century. Nice khanda....

rand

dralin23 · 31st July 2007, 07:53 PM

hi rand
yes these pictures shows these sword in these condition like i bought it for one year at an antique show in germany. the blade wasn´t newly etched than at the backsite from the blade are old gark rustdots. i don´t know if it is an parade sword ore for the palace guard was made. unfortunatly i can´t find an realy good book over khanda ore other maratha and rajasthan weapons. can someone offert me such an book??

stefan

29th June 2007, 11:00 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	an khanda sword hi all please tell me your opinion over these khanda sword. what think you from wich ct. is it? i will not sell it stefan Attached Images

29th June 2007, 11:02 PM	#2
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	some more pics. Attached Images

30th June 2007, 05:27 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 452	acid? Hi All, Rick's comment made me look at the pattern more closely and wonder whether it is the result of an acid etch on a wax resist rather than wootz. I have a kard whereon that technique was applied. If indeed the pattern was produced by acid etching unwatered steel, how was such a subtle pattern produced? From the looks of it, manually scraping away the resist wouldn't achieve such an intricate, random, and smoothly curved pattern of swirls (at least not cost effectively). So, if this pattern is a product of a wax resist, the question becomes, how was the resist etched to produce the pattern? Sincerely, RobT

30th June 2007, 03:42 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I think if you look closely you will see some repetition in the pattern. make up a basic block stamp pour wax on and stamp it, and over stamp it. You have your pattern made up in less than 1/2 hour and then etch with acid. Once you have carved your stamp you can use it over and over, making it very cost effective Last edited by ward; 30th June 2007 at 04:19 PM.

30th June 2007, 05:43 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It does not wear like that, if it is a parade weapon. As far as how long they have been doing this false damascus finish here is a excerpt from "Method of making Steel in the style of Damascus" written in 1771 by Jean Jacques Perret I have seen some hunting swords which were sold as damascus, but which I suspected not to be, in part because the blackish veins were too deep, and in part because their edges would not cut iron. Indeed their edges were so blunt and ill-shaped that they would not even cut wood. I tried to discover the method of "damascening" blades as boldly as these. After several trials I took a blade of polished steel and I covered it with a coating of wax, which I let drip from a lighted candle. I spread the wax evenly over the entire surface. Then I drew a quantity of lines in the wax, using a steel scribe which served me as a pencil. After that I poured some acid on the wax. I allowed it to bite or dissolve the steel which my "pencil" had uncovered for about an hour. I then cleaned it off, and found that I had discovered the whole secret. Last edited by ward; 30th June 2007 at 06:49 PM.

29th June 2007, 11:31 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	amazing.... one of the best khandas out there... Are you considering to restore the padding? I will do it, if it were mine. Only the best red velvet couscions allowed

30th June 2007, 12:08 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	There appears to be something odd about the 'wootz' pattern ...

30th June 2007, 01:33 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	This is certainly 'faux wootz'. Either acid etched or "waxed". I have never understood the mentality of that(either) process as it was so time consuming and labor intensive, and often was a way of saying, "I can't afford real wootz". It seems the real thing would have actually been cheaper, but I suppose that labor and time were two things not in short supply in 19th Cent. India. One thing for sure...it certainly shows the status and importance of a "wootz look". Now, I have a question....I have heard these sorts of swords referred to in a variety of different ways. Is this a 'patissa' with a 'khanda' hilt, or is it a 'khanda' in general???

30th June 2007, 04:01 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Stefan, Is it possible for you to get better pictures of the blade? Try outside like you did, but with a black background. Hi Ward, Yes I see what you mean, but this kind of ’false’ watering would wear off rather fast. I have not, in any of my books, seen described how to make ‘false’ watering, but I suppose it was done.

30th June 2007, 05:53 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	In one of the pictures, the 'patterning' seems to be 'raised'. Stefan if your rub your fingernail across the blade does it feel smooth or rough ? The condition of the sword, overall, is exceptional, and, as has already been said, looks relatively new. I took the liberty of enlarging and cropping one of the pictures of the blade Attached Images

30th June 2007, 07:48 PM	#12
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 678	I believe I have seen this khanda once, but from some distance (2-3 meters). It looked quite impressive and large, maybe around 1 meter overall, and nice as well As far as I remember, the gold looked not so newly made as on the pictures. It seems to me that we have to wait for some more pictures at least 1 week, until Stefan will come back from his vacation .

30th June 2007, 09:16 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, You are, of course right, and I am wrong, the false watering shown on Katana’s pictures – if they are as deep as they seems – will of course not be worn as fast as real watering. As I can’t recall to have seen ‘false’ watering before, I would be glad if Stefan could show some better pictures. Thank you Ward for the hint. Nice picture you made Katana

1st July 2007, 07:08 PM	#15
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	False wootz or we have a case of overacidification?

3rd July 2007, 05:51 PM	#17
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 176	katana it is "dendritic wootz" galvano

3rd July 2007, 10:27 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I'm still in the "false wootz" camp. We need Ann, Rsword, or Artzi here on this one. I have seen wax resist patterns identical to these examples.

9th July 2007, 09:05 PM	#19
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	khanda sword hi all, at first sorry for the late answers from me, i was one week not at home!! and now, thank you all for your answers and opinions because these sword. it was an great help for me even then i must listen that the blade is possible false wootz. maybe it is realy so. in the last days i looked in some books in the hope i can find such an wootz pattern but i must see that the typical wood like patern from true wootz steel isn´t at the surface from these blade. these pattern shows nearby like the pattern at the blade from the tegha from alex. you can feel it with the finger tips. one question was (how is the lenght from these khanda) it is over all 91cm, the blade is 69cm and at the top it is 6,5cm wide. it shows not newly made and also the koftgari si not new made.you can find these khanda pattern in the book from a.c. tirri ( islamic arms) you can see some wear patern. i ask me why should used in such an mounting an false wootz blade? Attached Images

31st July 2007, 02:52 AM	#20
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Khanda with Gold Koftgari Is this the condition blade was in when you purchased it? Was there previously a light layer of rust that was removed? It may be the lighting, but the color of the metal looks a dull grey with no luster, not the hard shine of smooth metal I would expect, that could be caused from applying a rust remover like naval jelly to take rust from intricate goldwork. The blade definately is false damascus, the color of the gold and the style of the decoration appear 19th century. Nice khanda.... rand

31st July 2007, 07:53 PM	#21
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	khanda hi rand yes these pictures shows these sword in these condition like i bought it for one year at an antique show in germany. the blade wasn´t newly etched than at the backsite from the blade are old gark rustdots. i don´t know if it is an parade sword ore for the palace guard was made. unfortunatly i can´t find an realy good book over khanda ore other maratha and rajasthan weapons. can someone offert me such an book?? stefan