Garuda Kris

Ian · 12th March 2022, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

... Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)
...
SS

I agree that the one on the right may well be Malay in origin. However, the elephant trunk area does closely resemble the Maranao style, and the raised bands on the hilt are also found on Maranao pieces. In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

kino · 13th March 2022, 04:02 AM

SS, amazing collection. I really like that 3 siko example with the octagonal (?), ferrule.
Here’s one that I have but really doesn’t compare to yours.
This one is really small with a brass or some copper alloyed blade. The hilt has a carving of a “Tree of Life”.

SanibelSwassa · 13th March 2022, 05:51 AM

Wow!! Thank you for sharing the example from your collection. The carving on the hilt is very interesting. There is definitely serious symbolism in this hilt style.

I’m including another example I found in Europe but that isn’t for sale. It also has similar characteristics. Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?

SanibelSwassa · 13th March 2022, 05:58 AM

Here are some additional pics of the two archaics.

kai · 13th March 2022, 04:05 PM

Hello SS,

Quote:

Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?

Albert's blade is made from a copper alloy - so no pattern welding to be expected.

It also seems to be quite a bit younger, possibly with a recycled hilt/pommel. From the design, the hilt might well be from a similar period as your younger example that you got from Charles.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th March 2022, 04:09 PM

Hello Ian,

Quote:

In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

Thanks for your clarification - I was already wondering whether you had mixed things up...

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 13th March 2022, 06:14 PM

Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync.

David · 13th March 2022, 10:37 PM

Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

kai · 13th March 2022, 11:59 PM

Hello David,

As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts.

I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2022, 12:38 AM

Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy".

I do not understand what is meant by this.

With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper.

We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon.

Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use.

I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world.

Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

Battara · 14th March 2022, 01:44 AM

I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant).

Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then.

13th March 2022, 04:02 AM	#2
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 981	SS, amazing collection. I really like that 3 siko example with the octagonal (?), ferrule. Here’s one that I have but really doesn’t compare to yours. This one is really small with a brass or some copper alloyed blade. The hilt has a carving of a “Tree of Life”. Attached Images

13th March 2022, 05:51 AM	#3
SanibelSwassa Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Sanibel Florida Posts: 104	Wow!! Thank you for sharing the example from your collection. The carving on the hilt is very interesting. There is definitely serious symbolism in this hilt style. I’m including another example I found in Europe but that isn’t for sale. It also has similar characteristics. Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours? Attached Images

13th March 2022, 05:58 AM	#4
SanibelSwassa Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Sanibel Florida Posts: 104	Here are some additional pics of the two archaics. Attached Images

13th March 2022, 06:14 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,042	Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync.

13th March 2022, 10:37 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,042	Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

13th March 2022, 11:59 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,221	Hello David, As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts. I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism... Regards, Kai

14th March 2022, 12:38 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy". I do not understand what is meant by this. With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper. We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon. Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use. I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world. Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

14th March 2022, 01:44 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant). Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then.