semi-dual edged badik?

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Beautiful badik! And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks, Detlef.

Perhaps I would own as good & as much as yours, one day...

[T. Koch]

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...
That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...?

Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal.


Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation.

In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails.

Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks.


Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!


All the best, - Thor

[T. Koch]

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two!

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two!

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime!

Thank's!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!

Agree with you, the colour is beautiful. Maybe is was dyed originally but I think it's also with a very good age.

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Well I've heard about this practice too. But did it not that tea dyeing would usually turns up with a straight brownish hue on any surface the dipping takes place? Or if the whole hilt was totally submerged, you will get an even dyed tone, all over the hilt?

I think the badik hilt in question here has turned brownish / golden on the area where the finger or palm would be placed. Noted the uneven slight yellowish that appears on some spot, vertically.

I has one keris hilt with a suspected tea-dyeing treatment, where a straight line of golden tone was present, as if the hilt was partially submerged, heads up. Will post the pix later.


Thanks Thor for enlighten me up in this segment...it is not easy to pick up and tell this-and-that ivory on the go, but with your knowledge and input I think we should be able to do that soon

[T. Koch]

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Hi Mosha! Here it is the combination of the visible laminar build-up of dentine in combination with the dots in an angled row. These two combinations lead me to believe that we are dealing with hippo ivory. I will never give a statement in certainty about these things, unless I have the piece in hand. I generally advise anybody being cautious when performing an identification and never to do it based on a sole character trait alone. I've personally seen other ivory species which show either similar dots or similar laminations. With the two characters being present here together, i.e. the laminations and the dots, my belief is strong that it is indeed hippo ivory.

I asked a colleague today btw, if he knew whether hippo tusks grow continually through the life of the animal and even though he wasn't sure, he pointed out a supporting fact that I hadn't considered: When the hippopotamus closes it mouth, the apical surface of the tusks in the lower jaw grind against those of the tusks in the upper jaw, perpetually wearing down the tusks from the distal end. This taken into consideration, it would make highly sense for the tusks to keep on growing and renewing throughout the life of the animal.

I found a picture of a hippo skull where you can maybe get an idea of the tusks grinding against eachother:

[T. Koch]

Here is the standard reference picture for a hippo tusk in cross section. Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.

If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

It could also just be a freak - a deviation from the norm, where an animal has been born without a prominent TIZ. I don't know - but now I'm certainly dead curious to find out!

Regarding the tea staining, I'm sorry but can't answer you. I don't know anything about it but would love to learn more! Where was it done, how exactly, how culturally widespread, since when, etc. I just know I like the color.


All the best, - Thor

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

...Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.
If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

Well Thor I think that when you compared the TIZ pix with the badik's hilt, definitely you've got it right.

However some of my kerises hilts were also producing the similar tiny dots over the TIz. Then would it be a hippo tusks as well? Generally it was touted as "sea ivory" over here, and the main indicator is the tiny dots along the TIZ, if that was ever the TIZ.

Was marine ivory (walrus, sperm whale etc) doesn't have TIZ?

[Moshah]

I'm sorry. The pix attachment seems to get haywire a little bit but I've already arrange it in order during the posting process...

It is basically three hilts, with hilt # (b) supposedly closed up on the tiny dots on the TIZ...