Karabela - the nicest you have seen

Valjhun · 9th July 2006, 11:00 PM

I've been offered that karabela (the seller is a aquitance of mine).

Descriptiom (from the seller):
A beautifull set from Bahtiany family - Hungary.
Collar (for attaching the "knightly" mantle) is from silver with gold platings. With 6 sweetwater pearls, 15 emeralds 6ct and 18 rubbies 6ct.
The sword belt is also silver with gold platings. With 6 sweetwater pearls, 15 emeralds 6ct and 18 rubbies 6ct.
Silver engraved spurs.
24 silver buttons with 24 rubbies 3ct. - 19mm
14 silver buttons with 14 rubbies 3ct. - 22mm
13 silver buttons with 13 rubbies 3ct - 26mm

The hilt and the scabbard are silver mounted and gold plated, with 19 rubbies 2,2 ct and 10 emeralds ca. 2ct.

Almost 2kg of silver in this set.

The blade (still waiting for pictures of the blade) bears the inscription "Frincia"

To me seems Polish, however, maybe the crests would tell the difference.

PM me how much you would pay for that.

Any comments?

S.Al-Anizi · 9th July 2006, 11:08 PM

That certainly is a very nice sword. I would think that the price is in grands.

ariel · 9th July 2006, 11:29 PM

It is worth it!!!!!
Am I seeing an eagle on the scabbard?
My guess it is Croatian/Hungarian/Transylvanian rather than Polish: far too rich.

Rather · 10th July 2006, 09:07 AM

I don't think that it is an eagle. To me it looks like the Christian symbol of Pelican in her piety. (photo for reference)
Could be a sword of a Knight of an Order.

Tim Simmons · 10th July 2006, 09:47 AM

Roman Catholic order of the swan? Prussian?

Tim Simmons · 10th July 2006, 10:08 AM

The bird on the chain does look like she is feeding young from her own blood.
I could not get any very good info in a google search "order of the pelican"

Rather · 10th July 2006, 10:38 AM

There is an Order of the Swan, Brandenburgischer Schwanenorden, but the design of the bird is quite different from the one on the sword. The chain of this order looks like this.
I have not heard of any order of the pelican, but the symbol might be used by any Christian order, it is very common in Christian graphical representation.

Tim Simmons · 10th July 2006, 12:14 PM

Must be from a Christian Knights Order. The colours of the stones are seen in the Hungarian flag?

Valjhun · 10th July 2006, 12:38 PM

It looks that my friend misspleled the family name... it is not Bahtiany but rather Batthyány.

From Wikipedia: Batthyány is the name of an old distinguished Hungarian Magnate family.They were first mentioned in documents in 1398 and had their ancestral seat in Güssing in the Austrian region Burgenland since 1522. In 1570, Balthasar Batthyány transformed the seat of the family, Güssing, into the center of protestantism in the region. His descendant however, Adam Batthyány (* 1610, † 1659) was catholic and founded a Franciscan monastery in Güssing (in the south of the present-day Burgenland). Lajos Batthyány became the first Prime Minister of Hungary during the revolution of 1848 and was executed in Pest in 1849. After 1945 the Batthyány family was largely expropriated in the then socialist countries, although they kept some important property in the Burgenland, Austria. They had also properties near the city of Maribor (Slovenia).

And there is their coat of arms... It is a swan

looks my friend was right attributing that sword to that precise noble family and the colour of the jewels as Tim stated indeed represents the hungarian flag. I guess that it was confiscated and kept some 60 years ago by some yugoslav communist officer or aktivist.

It seems that the guy on the photo below is wearing a verry similar collar, and BTW that is not a knightly order collar, it is a mantle bearer.

What about the age? I would think about 1849 looking at the nationalistic hungarian colors on it

The price is faaar above my current finance situation. If anybody is interested I can arrange a meeting.

Valjhun · 10th July 2006, 01:16 PM

Quote:

second half of the 17th century
Oil on canvas (transferred to new canvas), 234 x 140 cm
Historical Picture Gallery, Hungarian National Museum, Budapest. The represented persosn is probably Kristóf Batthyányi II (1632-1685), the ealdorman of Vas County, High Captain of the Cis-Danaubian territories.

Ehm.. look at the sword that guy is bearing....

Is it possible that it is the same sword?

Rather · 10th July 2006, 03:48 PM

Dont think so, in my oppinion the painting is older than the sword. The style rocaille elements on the hilt are more likely mid of 18th century.
But the attribution to the Batthyány family is most likely, the coat of arms gives the clue, but it is still a pelican, not a swan...

Definitely a sword for a museum collection!

ham · 10th July 2006, 06:35 PM

Very handsome sword, but not Polish and certainly not a karabela type. This is Hungarian Revival work of the 1850s-1890s. It represents an artistic approach on the part of ethnic Hungarians to react to Austrian dominance at the Austro-Hungarian Court.

Ham

Valjhun · 11th July 2006, 04:59 PM

And here is the blade.

S.Al-Anizi · 11th July 2006, 05:48 PM

A most beautiful blade! I love to see such european motifs.

ariel · 12th July 2006, 12:41 AM

A sumptuous sword! I would love to have it but would not be willing to sell my car for it.
If I were a descendant of the family... that's a different ballgame: Mark once told us a fascinating story about his hunt for the sword of his great-great-grandfather (a couple more "greats"?)
It is either a museum piece or a family heiloom. Anything else is not justified, IMHO.

9th July 2006, 11:00 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Karabela - the nicest you have seen I've been offered that karabela (the seller is a aquitance of mine). Descriptiom (from the seller): A beautifull set from Bahtiany family - Hungary. Collar (for attaching the "knightly" mantle) is from silver with gold platings. With 6 sweetwater pearls, 15 emeralds 6ct and 18 rubbies 6ct. The sword belt is also silver with gold platings. With 6 sweetwater pearls, 15 emeralds 6ct and 18 rubbies 6ct. Silver engraved spurs. 24 silver buttons with 24 rubbies 3ct. - 19mm 14 silver buttons with 14 rubbies 3ct. - 22mm 13 silver buttons with 13 rubbies 3ct - 26mm The hilt and the scabbard are silver mounted and gold plated, with 19 rubbies 2,2 ct and 10 emeralds ca. 2ct. Almost 2kg of silver in this set. The blade (still waiting for pictures of the blade) bears the inscription "Frincia" To me seems Polish, however, maybe the crests would tell the difference. PM me how much you would pay for that. Any comments? Attached Images

10th July 2006, 09:07 AM	#4
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	I don't think that it is an eagle. To me it looks like the Christian symbol of Pelican in her piety. (photo for reference) Could be a sword of a Knight of an Order. Attached Images

10th July 2006, 10:38 AM	#7
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	There is an Order of the Swan, Brandenburgischer Schwanenorden, but the design of the bird is quite different from the one on the sword. The chain of this order looks like this. I have not heard of any order of the pelican, but the symbol might be used by any Christian order, it is very common in Christian graphical representation. Attached Images

10th July 2006, 12:38 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It looks that my friend misspleled the family name... it is not Bahtiany but rather Batthyány. From Wikipedia: Batthyány is the name of an old distinguished Hungarian Magnate family.They were first mentioned in documents in 1398 and had their ancestral seat in Güssing in the Austrian region Burgenland since 1522. In 1570, Balthasar Batthyány transformed the seat of the family, Güssing, into the center of protestantism in the region. His descendant however, Adam Batthyány (* 1610, † 1659) was catholic and founded a Franciscan monastery in Güssing (in the south of the present-day Burgenland). Lajos Batthyány became the first Prime Minister of Hungary during the revolution of 1848 and was executed in Pest in 1849. After 1945 the Batthyány family was largely expropriated in the then socialist countries, although they kept some important property in the Burgenland, Austria. They had also properties near the city of Maribor (Slovenia). And there is their coat of arms... It is a swan looks my friend was right attributing that sword to that precise noble family and the colour of the jewels as Tim stated indeed represents the hungarian flag. I guess that it was confiscated and kept some 60 years ago by some yugoslav communist officer or aktivist. It seems that the guy on the photo below is wearing a verry similar collar, and BTW that is not a knightly order collar, it is a mantle bearer. What about the age? I would think about 1849 looking at the nationalistic hungarian colors on it The price is faaar above my current finance situation. If anybody is interested I can arrange a meeting. Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 10th July 2006 at 01:10 PM.

11th July 2006, 04:59 PM	#13
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	And here is the blade. Attached Images

9th July 2006, 11:08 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	That certainly is a very nice sword. I would think that the price is in grands.

9th July 2006, 11:29 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is worth it!!!!! Am I seeing an eagle on the scabbard? My guess it is Croatian/Hungarian/Transylvanian rather than Polish: far too rich.

10th July 2006, 09:47 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Roman Catholic order of the swan? Prussian?

10th July 2006, 10:08 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The bird on the chain does look like she is feeding young from her own blood. I could not get any very good info in a google search "order of the pelican"

10th July 2006, 12:14 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Must be from a Christian Knights Order. The colours of the stones are seen in the Hungarian flag?

10th July 2006, 03:48 PM	#11
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Dont think so, in my oppinion the painting is older than the sword. The style rocaille elements on the hilt are more likely mid of 18th century. But the attribution to the Batthyány family is most likely, the coat of arms gives the clue, but it is still a pelican, not a swan... Definitely a sword for a museum collection!

10th July 2006, 06:35 PM	#12
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Very handsome sword, but not Polish and certainly not a karabela type. This is Hungarian Revival work of the 1850s-1890s. It represents an artistic approach on the part of ethnic Hungarians to react to Austrian dominance at the Austro-Hungarian Court. Ham

11th July 2006, 05:48 PM	#14
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	A most beautiful blade! I love to see such european motifs.

12th July 2006, 12:41 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A sumptuous sword! I would love to have it but would not be willing to sell my car for it. If I were a descendant of the family... that's a different ballgame: Mark once told us a fascinating story about his hunt for the sword of his great-great-grandfather (a couple more "greats"?) It is either a museum piece or a family heiloom. Anything else is not justified, IMHO.