Inscription on Yataghan

ariel · 17th May 2005, 01:19 AM

I once asked for help in reading the inscription, but had no luck.
Now, with the proliferation of multilingual forumites, I may have a better chance.

ham · 17th May 2005, 02:48 AM

Gentlemen,

Though it is not executed in a particularly literate hand, the inscription appears to read AGHA 'ALI.
When a given name, in this case 'Ali, is preceded by the word AGHA on an Ottoman weapon or piece of military equipment, it may generally be taken as the name of the head- or leader- of the military corps or unit to which the owner belonged. When the term AGHA follows the given name, it is more generally an honorific like 'lord.' Since this type of yataghan was often used by Ottoman village constabularies, it may be that 'Ali was a chief of police.

sincerely,

Ham

ariel · 17th May 2005, 03:36 AM

Many thanks.
What kind of script is it? Native Arabic and Farsi speakers (readers) could not read it.

ham · 17th May 2005, 05:02 AM

Despite some variation in regional variations and styles, any Arabic characters should be legible to literate native speakers. It is not an easy alphabet, having three cases as it does, distinguished by particular rules of connectivity. But the ability to simply read Arabic characters, regardless of skill, is really not sufficient-- training is required to read period texts since spellings, as well as meanings, change with time. Further, the language spoken by a given reader may utilize Arabic characters though the language itself is different. Latin letters prersent the same problem-- Brits can read German but not understand a word, and though more closely related, Russians can read the Serbian variant of Cyrillic, but certain letters and words will not register... and so on.
The word Agha is Persian, adopted into Ottoman so an Arab speaker would not recognize it at all, and perhaps an Iranian would not associate the spelling with the word. Proper spelling can impact a translation considerably as well-- with a slight orthographic shift, the word AGHA departs the lofty meaning 'lord' to become the decidedly less complimentary "eunuch" in Persian.

Sincerely,

Ham

Aqtai · 17th May 2005, 10:53 AM

Its Arabic script, but upside down and poorly written. I'm not sure about 'Ali though, there seems to be a dot abve the letter 'ain, although that could actually be a letter 'meem'.

ham · 17th May 2005, 05:35 PM

It does look like a mim, doesn't it. I had to run it through several steps in photoshop to get it clear; there is a narrow opening at the beginning of the character. I suspect the dot above it is fanciful as they often are in cases like this one. The whole bit is rendered phonetically and without much attention to case. Interesting though that the engraving itself is quite competent-- this would seem to argue for a skilled but non-literate, or barely literate, craftsman.

Sincerely,

Ham

erlikhan · 18th May 2005, 12:30 PM

ham, yes Ottoman palace environment got and used many Farsi words, i think agha or aga as Turks write, is Turkish.Perhaps from the ones which passed to Farsi later. It had and still has one more meaning, "big brother" in Turkish,which I think is not used in Farsi. even Turkish inscriptions from 6th c. a.c. in today's Mongolia uses ata=father, ana=mother, ene= sister(not used today), aga= big brother etc.. In steppe, father was the certain and only leader of all family , and after him was coming the big brother as the potential leader after father's death. The respect shown to big brother and loaded on the word, caused it later to be used for militaristic and feodalistic chiefs too, to obtain the same respect against ordinary people(especially after Turks came, settled and had feodalism in farmlands of Iran,Mesopotamia and Anadolu).
Ali agha means the sword belonged to a guy named Ali, who is a bit or more over the average wealth and respect in a Balkan or Anadolu village or a countryside town. (Doesnt necessarily have to be the owner of a whole village or huge lands, but could be too)
Nice piece. The scabbard wood original or later? Looks surprizingly well preserved for a scabbard whose leather cover has worn and been lost. The lack of the craftsman's literacy didnt surprize me at all.It is too normal for the era and a village or small town. I am sure, the owner wrote what he wants to a paper, and ordered the craftsman to inscribe it onto the blade, and the guy who had never gone to school or written anything on paper, just tried to copy the shapes he saw.

17th May 2005, 01:19 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Inscription on Yataghan I once asked for help in reading the inscription, but had no luck. Now, with the proliferation of multilingual forumites, I may have a better chance. Attached Images

17th May 2005, 05:02 AM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Despite some variation in regional variations and styles, any Arabic characters should be legible to literate native speakers. It is not an easy alphabet, having three cases as it does, distinguished by particular rules of connectivity. But the ability to simply read Arabic characters, regardless of skill, is really not sufficient-- training is required to read period texts since spellings, as well as meanings, change with time. Further, the language spoken by a given reader may utilize Arabic characters though the language itself is different. Latin letters prersent the same problem-- Brits can read German but not understand a word, and though more closely related, Russians can read the Serbian variant of Cyrillic, but certain letters and words will not register... and so on. The word Agha is Persian, adopted into Ottoman so an Arab speaker would not recognize it at all, and perhaps an Iranian would not associate the spelling with the word. Proper spelling can impact a translation considerably as well-- with a slight orthographic shift, the word AGHA departs the lofty meaning 'lord' to become the decidedly less complimentary "eunuch" in Persian. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 17th May 2005 at 08:38 AM.

18th May 2005, 12:30 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	ham, yes Ottoman palace environment got and used many Farsi words, i think agha or aga as Turks write, is Turkish.Perhaps from the ones which passed to Farsi later. It had and still has one more meaning, "big brother" in Turkish,which I think is not used in Farsi. even Turkish inscriptions from 6th c. a.c. in today's Mongolia uses ata=father, ana=mother, ene= sister(not used today), aga= big brother etc.. In steppe, father was the certain and only leader of all family , and after him was coming the big brother as the potential leader after father's death. The respect shown to big brother and loaded on the word, caused it later to be used for militaristic and feodalistic chiefs too, to obtain the same respect against ordinary people(especially after Turks came, settled and had feodalism in farmlands of Iran,Mesopotamia and Anadolu). Ali agha means the sword belonged to a guy named Ali, who is a bit or more over the average wealth and respect in a Balkan or Anadolu village or a countryside town. (Doesnt necessarily have to be the owner of a whole village or huge lands, but could be too) Nice piece. The scabbard wood original or later? Looks surprizingly well preserved for a scabbard whose leather cover has worn and been lost. The lack of the craftsman's literacy didnt surprize me at all.It is too normal for the era and a village or small town. I am sure, the owner wrote what he wants to a paper, and ordered the craftsman to inscribe it onto the blade, and the guy who had never gone to school or written anything on paper, just tried to copy the shapes he saw. Last edited by erlikhan; 18th May 2005 at 11:20 PM.

17th May 2005, 02:48 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Though it is not executed in a particularly literate hand, the inscription appears to read AGHA 'ALI. When a given name, in this case 'Ali, is preceded by the word AGHA on an Ottoman weapon or piece of military equipment, it may generally be taken as the name of the head- or leader- of the military corps or unit to which the owner belonged. When the term AGHA follows the given name, it is more generally an honorific like 'lord.' Since this type of yataghan was often used by Ottoman village constabularies, it may be that 'Ali was a chief of police. sincerely, Ham

17th May 2005, 03:36 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Many thanks. What kind of script is it? Native Arabic and Farsi speakers (readers) could not read it.

17th May 2005, 10:53 AM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Its Arabic script, but upside down and poorly written. I'm not sure about 'Ali though, there seems to be a dot abve the letter 'ain, although that could actually be a letter 'meem'.

17th May 2005, 05:35 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	It does look like a mim, doesn't it. I had to run it through several steps in photoshop to get it clear; there is a narrow opening at the beginning of the character. I suspect the dot above it is fanciful as they often are in cases like this one. The whole bit is rendered phonetically and without much attention to case. Interesting though that the engraving itself is quite competent-- this would seem to argue for a skilled but non-literate, or barely literate, craftsman. Sincerely, Ham