questions about Taiwanese matchlocks

KuKulzA28 · 21st August 2016, 09:59 PM

Hello guys, I have been wanting to assemble a muzzleloading firearm and I wanted to make something to do with my heritage. I think interest began 7 yrs ago and cannot be contained now.

From what I can tell, Taiwanese matchlocks seemed to have been essentially Chinese ones - I don't think there was a Taiwanese-specific flair to them - though if there is I'd love to find out. While I will be substituting the matchlock for a flintlock mechanism (due to laws in my area) I want the rest to be somewhat authentic in construction...

Here are my questions, and I hope you guys can help me...

Securing the barrel:
Did they use tenons or just bands to secure the barrel to the stock? Were the bands pinned to the stock? What material are the bands made of? Did they have a breech-plug with a tang?

Ramrod:
Were the ramrods stored under the barrels? Was it just a groove on the underside or a tunnel drilled in there?

Sights:
Did Taiwanese matchlocks use sights? If so, what were they like?
I am under the impression Taiwanese ones did not generally have sights... maybe their Chinese counterparts did..?

"Pistol-grip":
They often have an L-shaped pistol grip, do you find that they usually select wood that has a natural curve in the grain? ...if not, was the way they were shot not as stressful for the grip?
I can see that being a weak point, but then again, it's not like a conventional shoulder-stock where the recoil goes to the shoulder...

Philip · 27th August 2016, 03:26 AM

There ARE distinct differences between Chinese and Taiwanese guns as there are in the case of the swords and knives of the two culture-spheres. This can be expected since the aboriginal peoples of Formosa are not at all related to the Chinese ethnically, linguistically, or culturally. They share strong affinities with certain tribal peoples in Borneo and mainland SE Asia.

A classic example of a Taiwanese gun (these are very rare) can be found in Stone's GLOSSARY... OF ARMS AND ARMOR in the article "Gun", fig. 333. Its matchlock mechanism is unique in all Asia, a rudimentary thing worthy of late medieval Europe when the gun was in its infancy. In fact, the rearward-pivoting serpentine is very un-Asian, and is more typical of the West. So little is known about the development of guns on Taiwan that any supposition as to the introduction of this particular lock to the island would be very speculative. It is not found on the mainland of China.

The Taiwanese guns do not have sights. Chinese ones mostly do -- muskets have a bead or blade front and a notch or peep rear (Stone is wrong when he says some have 3 sights -- I've never seen such.
They are aimed by holding the crook of the stock against the CHEEK, the shoulder is not involved. The trigger hand helps brace the stock against the cheek, and helps steady the piece during aim. The arms absorb the recoil. It is a surprisingly efficient system once you get used to it. Cheek stocks were typical in Germany during the 16th-17th cent., and were introduced to Asia by the Portuguese along with the snapping matchlock mechanism in the 1500s. (the Japanese teppo is a classic example) Other Asian countries used long, shoulder-braced buttstocks of Turco-Persian type, China was unique in using both systems but I've never seen a Taiwanese gun with a shoulder stock.

The slender pistol-grip stock has a deeper crook than any of its counterparts in Tonkin (northern Vietnam) or China. Stone describes the barrel mounting as having a single barrel band and a key-bolt through the barrel tang. I handled this very gun some years ago (It's in the Peabody-Essex Museum in Salem, MA, you might be interested in contacting the staff for better images and details) and recall no provision for a ramrod. Despite its mechanical crudity, the fit and finish are decent for a tribal weapon made with limited resources.

In general, the deeply curved 90 degree bend of of these Taiwan gunstocks has parallels in some TRIBAL guns of continental Asia. Note in particular the guns of the Miao aborigines of Southwest China (see Howard L Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD, plate 70.) That piece has a far more sophisticated lock of Indo-Portuguese type, undoubtedly copied from the Chinese. The hill-tribes of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia used until recently a small smoothbore musket equipped with an ingenious but crudely made flintlock, these have half-stocks held by barrel bands like both the Miao and Taiwan pieces. (you have probably seen a number of these things before at gun shows since many were brought back by GIs during the Vietnam War). All of these plus the Miao guns lack ramrods, the powder and ball were apparently settled at the breech with a few smart raps on the butt with the muzzle held vertically. I can't imagine a patched ball being used, projectiles must have been a good deal undersized to get past the fouling that accumulates after a number of shots fired.

I hope this info is helpful. Let me know if you have further questions. Good luck on your project.

rickystl · 27th August 2016, 04:32 PM

Hi Philip.

While my primary interest is Ethno firearms, I know very little about these Chinese/Tiwanese matchlocks. Thank you for the history lesson. Most interesting. While you were handling the gun in MA did you notice wheather or not the 90 degree bend in the butt stock was made in two pieces or one ?

Hi KuKulzA28.

That would be a very interesting project. A tapered, round musket barrel would not be difficult to locate, as long as you can use one about 46" long or less. Otherwise, it would have to be custom ordered. (I'm just now expecting delivery of a barrel I've been waiting for a year and a half).
If you can't use a matchlock, the crude-style flintlock that Philip mentions would be the way to go. It would likely be the only flintlock "style" that would look right with the gun. I know the lock that Philip mentions. There was one that came up for sale a couple years ago. I should have bought it. DARN. While having an original lock to copy would be best, there are lock makers here in the U.S. that can make a copy of this lock from photos. They can even copy the crudeness, but make it function correctly and reliably.

Let us know if we can be of help in sourcing material.

Rick

KuKulzA28 · 30th August 2016, 01:32 PM

WOW. Thank you both so much for that. Learning more about my own culture's Martial history is great.

Any name or picture of this primitive flintlock?

Time to go hunt down parts and the right stock, and quality chisels!

I'm sure more questions might come up as I go...

Edit: and I do want to note that while I do know of many of the ethnic and cultural differences in Taiwan, between settlers and Aborigines, between the 'tribes', between hakka and hoklo... ..I was under the impression that the matchlocks were imported Chinese ones... There's much for me to learn!

Philip · 2nd September 2016, 12:14 AM

Ricky,
The stock was originally painted or lacquered and there's this lovely patina of age on it. All of which didn't allow me to check if it was two piece. (plus, the lighting in the museum's depot leaves something to be desired!). Getting such a deep curve and slender profile from one piece of wood takes some doing. I wonder if saplings were bent to shape and the trees allowed to grow into the shape, leaving the upper part straight for the fore-end? That would provide maximum strength, and a lot of trees grow rather quickly in the tropics. I have no idea what kind of wood the original is made of. A buddy of mine in CA happens to have one of these guns, let me ask him what his is made of. Stay tuned.

Hey guys -- if you want to go the crude tribal flintlock route, why not pick up one of those Vietnam "Montagnard" guns I was talking about at a gun show, find one with a lock in good shape, and use that? The things are so simple and sturdy I hardly ever see one that's really damaged. The guns themselves have little collector value so taking the lock off isn't the kiss of death. Wait... I remember that they are dismountable without the need to bust anything. Slide the large rearmost barrel band forward, it allows the "tongue" at the front of the lockplate to lift free. Rotate it sideways away from the stock. The rear is a hook engaging an iron staple pounded into the stock. The thing is easier to field-strip than an AK-47!

Be forewarned, though, that these locks are primitive. Forget about what you saw in that movie about the Alamo. There is no screw-tightened jaws for the flint, it's probably anchored with tree resin and rawhide (changing it is a chore, in fact just about all of the originals you see lack a flint). There is no depression to speak of for a priming pan. Just pour a tad of powder on the wide ledge next to the touchhole, close the frizzen, invoke the blessings of St Barbara if you're Catholic, and take on that tiger that's staring you down on the jungle path.

rickystl · 3rd September 2016, 04:19 PM

Hi Philip.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, maybe your friend can advise us on the stock. All the photos I've seen seem to show it being a one-piece stock. I've never held/seen one up close. Even with the prolonged use of steam, I can't imagine being able to make that severe of a bend without weakening or breaking the stock. I think your theory of positioning a young sapling in the desired position, and letting it grow in that direction has merit. Would be interesting to know.
But for a shooting replica, a two-piece stock is one option.

Another option, as Philip mentions, would be to purchase a complete Vietnamese gun and use the lock. There doesn't seem to be any real collector interest/value in these guns. They tend to sell for a low price.

One more option. Unless there is a big difference between the Tiwanese and Vietnamese stock and barrel design, you could purchase the complete Vietnames gun and re-orient the look of the gun to fit the Tiwanese style, and use a new barrel or have a new steel liner installed in the existing barrel. And that might be the least expensive route. Just a thought.

I'm still kicking myself for not getting that lock off Ebay when I saw it 2-3 years ago.

Rick

21st August 2016, 09:59 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	questions about Taiwanese matchlocks Hello guys, I have been wanting to assemble a muzzleloading firearm and I wanted to make something to do with my heritage. I think interest began 7 yrs ago and cannot be contained now. From what I can tell, Taiwanese matchlocks seemed to have been essentially Chinese ones - I don't think there was a Taiwanese-specific flair to them - though if there is I'd love to find out. While I will be substituting the matchlock for a flintlock mechanism (due to laws in my area) I want the rest to be somewhat authentic in construction... Here are my questions, and I hope you guys can help me... Securing the barrel: Did they use tenons or just bands to secure the barrel to the stock? Were the bands pinned to the stock? What material are the bands made of? Did they have a breech-plug with a tang? Ramrod: Were the ramrods stored under the barrels? Was it just a groove on the underside or a tunnel drilled in there? Sights: Did Taiwanese matchlocks use sights? If so, what were they like? I am under the impression Taiwanese ones did not generally have sights... maybe their Chinese counterparts did..? "Pistol-grip": They often have an L-shaped pistol grip, do you find that they usually select wood that has a natural curve in the grain? ...if not, was the way they were shot not as stressful for the grip? I can see that being a weak point, but then again, it's not like a conventional shoulder-stock where the recoil goes to the shoulder...

30th August 2016, 01:32 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	WOW. Thank you both so much for that. Learning more about my own culture's Martial history is great. Any name or picture of this primitive flintlock? Time to go hunt down parts and the right stock, and quality chisels! I'm sure more questions might come up as I go... Edit: and I do want to note that while I do know of many of the ethnic and cultural differences in Taiwan, between settlers and Aborigines, between the 'tribes', between hakka and hoklo... ..I was under the impression that the matchlocks were imported Chinese ones... There's much for me to learn! Last edited by KuKulzA28; 30th August 2016 at 07:15 PM.

2nd September 2016, 12:14 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	designing your functional replica Ricky, The stock was originally painted or lacquered and there's this lovely patina of age on it. All of which didn't allow me to check if it was two piece. (plus, the lighting in the museum's depot leaves something to be desired!). Getting such a deep curve and slender profile from one piece of wood takes some doing. I wonder if saplings were bent to shape and the trees allowed to grow into the shape, leaving the upper part straight for the fore-end? That would provide maximum strength, and a lot of trees grow rather quickly in the tropics. I have no idea what kind of wood the original is made of. A buddy of mine in CA happens to have one of these guns, let me ask him what his is made of. Stay tuned. Hey guys -- if you want to go the crude tribal flintlock route, why not pick up one of those Vietnam "Montagnard" guns I was talking about at a gun show, find one with a lock in good shape, and use that? The things are so simple and sturdy I hardly ever see one that's really damaged. The guns themselves have little collector value so taking the lock off isn't the kiss of death. Wait... I remember that they are dismountable without the need to bust anything. Slide the large rearmost barrel band forward, it allows the "tongue" at the front of the lockplate to lift free. Rotate it sideways away from the stock. The rear is a hook engaging an iron staple pounded into the stock. The thing is easier to field-strip than an AK-47! Be forewarned, though, that these locks are primitive. Forget about what you saw in that movie about the Alamo. There is no screw-tightened jaws for the flint, it's probably anchored with tree resin and rawhide (changing it is a chore, in fact just about all of the originals you see lack a flint). There is no depression to speak of for a priming pan. Just pour a tad of powder on the wide ledge next to the touchhole, close the frizzen, invoke the blessings of St Barbara if you're Catholic, and take on that tiger that's staring you down on the jungle path.

27th August 2016, 03:26 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	There ARE distinct differences between Chinese and Taiwanese guns as there are in the case of the swords and knives of the two culture-spheres. This can be expected since the aboriginal peoples of Formosa are not at all related to the Chinese ethnically, linguistically, or culturally. They share strong affinities with certain tribal peoples in Borneo and mainland SE Asia. A classic example of a Taiwanese gun (these are very rare) can be found in Stone's GLOSSARY... OF ARMS AND ARMOR in the article "Gun", fig. 333. Its matchlock mechanism is unique in all Asia, a rudimentary thing worthy of late medieval Europe when the gun was in its infancy. In fact, the rearward-pivoting serpentine is very un-Asian, and is more typical of the West. So little is known about the development of guns on Taiwan that any supposition as to the introduction of this particular lock to the island would be very speculative. It is not found on the mainland of China. The Taiwanese guns do not have sights. Chinese ones mostly do -- muskets have a bead or blade front and a notch or peep rear (Stone is wrong when he says some have 3 sights -- I've never seen such. They are aimed by holding the crook of the stock against the CHEEK, the shoulder is not involved. The trigger hand helps brace the stock against the cheek, and helps steady the piece during aim. The arms absorb the recoil. It is a surprisingly efficient system once you get used to it. Cheek stocks were typical in Germany during the 16th-17th cent., and were introduced to Asia by the Portuguese along with the snapping matchlock mechanism in the 1500s. (the Japanese teppo is a classic example) Other Asian countries used long, shoulder-braced buttstocks of Turco-Persian type, China was unique in using both systems but I've never seen a Taiwanese gun with a shoulder stock. The slender pistol-grip stock has a deeper crook than any of its counterparts in Tonkin (northern Vietnam) or China. Stone describes the barrel mounting as having a single barrel band and a key-bolt through the barrel tang. I handled this very gun some years ago (It's in the Peabody-Essex Museum in Salem, MA, you might be interested in contacting the staff for better images and details) and recall no provision for a ramrod. Despite its mechanical crudity, the fit and finish are decent for a tribal weapon made with limited resources. In general, the deeply curved 90 degree bend of of these Taiwan gunstocks has parallels in some TRIBAL guns of continental Asia. Note in particular the guns of the Miao aborigines of Southwest China (see Howard L Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD, plate 70.) That piece has a far more sophisticated lock of Indo-Portuguese type, undoubtedly copied from the Chinese. The hill-tribes of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia used until recently a small smoothbore musket equipped with an ingenious but crudely made flintlock, these have half-stocks held by barrel bands like both the Miao and Taiwan pieces. (you have probably seen a number of these things before at gun shows since many were brought back by GIs during the Vietnam War). All of these plus the Miao guns lack ramrods, the powder and ball were apparently settled at the breech with a few smart raps on the butt with the muzzle held vertically. I can't imagine a patched ball being used, projectiles must have been a good deal undersized to get past the fouling that accumulates after a number of shots fired. I hope this info is helpful. Let me know if you have further questions. Good luck on your project.

27th August 2016, 04:32 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Philip. While my primary interest is Ethno firearms, I know very little about these Chinese/Tiwanese matchlocks. Thank you for the history lesson. Most interesting. While you were handling the gun in MA did you notice wheather or not the 90 degree bend in the butt stock was made in two pieces or one ? Hi KuKulzA28. That would be a very interesting project. A tapered, round musket barrel would not be difficult to locate, as long as you can use one about 46" long or less. Otherwise, it would have to be custom ordered. (I'm just now expecting delivery of a barrel I've been waiting for a year and a half). If you can't use a matchlock, the crude-style flintlock that Philip mentions would be the way to go. It would likely be the only flintlock "style" that would look right with the gun. I know the lock that Philip mentions. There was one that came up for sale a couple years ago. I should have bought it. DARN. While having an original lock to copy would be best, there are lock makers here in the U.S. that can make a copy of this lock from photos. They can even copy the crudeness, but make it function correctly and reliably. Let us know if we can be of help in sourcing material. Rick

3rd September 2016, 04:19 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Philip. Thanks for your reply. Yes, maybe your friend can advise us on the stock. All the photos I've seen seem to show it being a one-piece stock. I've never held/seen one up close. Even with the prolonged use of steam, I can't imagine being able to make that severe of a bend without weakening or breaking the stock. I think your theory of positioning a young sapling in the desired position, and letting it grow in that direction has merit. Would be interesting to know. But for a shooting replica, a two-piece stock is one option. Another option, as Philip mentions, would be to purchase a complete Vietnamese gun and use the lock. There doesn't seem to be any real collector interest/value in these guns. They tend to sell for a low price. One more option. Unless there is a big difference between the Tiwanese and Vietnamese stock and barrel design, you could purchase the complete Vietnames gun and re-orient the look of the gun to fit the Tiwanese style, and use a new barrel or have a new steel liner installed in the existing barrel. And that might be the least expensive route. Just a thought. I'm still kicking myself for not getting that lock off Ebay when I saw it 2-3 years ago. Rick