Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors

spiral · 29th July 2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Sadly in this case it is ivory. There are testing a horn handled piece to determine its species though.

After all with Cites the law is broken even it is due to ignorance of the law .{No legal paperwork}

I suspect the kukris, {They seized all 4 of them as in the same parcel.} will not be returned.

There all {IMHO} early 20th century. One has a 22ct. gold scabbard fittings. 2 are silver fittings.

spiral

drac2k · 29th July 2015, 04:59 PM

Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?
To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

Tim Simmons · 1st August 2015, 09:41 AM

The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?

Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.

ariel · 1st August 2015, 12:10 PM

Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-(((

Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz.

Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law.

castellum aquilonis · 11th August 2015, 11:31 PM

Interesting article:
http://www.muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566
F. Schlusswort
Den wahren Gesetzeszweck hat Frau Grütters ehrlich geäußert: „in Deutschland den Ankauf des Staates für Antiken und Münzen sowie sonstige Kunstwerke durch Marktbeschränkungen so billig als möglich zu machen.“ Ist dies: „Freiheit statt Sozialismus“?

Closing Remarks
The true purpose of the law Grütters expressed honestly : " To make the purchase of the state for antiquities and coins and other works of art by market restrictions as cheaply as possible in Germany" is this: " Freedom instead of socialism " ?

silberschatzimsee · 12th August 2015, 12:26 AM

yes its purposely done to get their hands onto the "Volkseigentum" (citizen-belongings)

sooner or later also our governemenr will follow.

1st August 2015, 12:10 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-((( Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz. Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law. Last edited by ariel; 1st August 2015 at 12:46 PM.

11th August 2015, 11:31 PM	#5
castellum aquilonis Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 47	.... Interesting article: http://www.muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566 F. Schlusswort Den wahren Gesetzeszweck hat Frau Grütters ehrlich geäußert: „in Deutschland den Ankauf des Staates für Antiken und Münzen sowie sonstige Kunstwerke durch Marktbeschränkungen so billig als möglich zu machen.“ Ist dies: „Freiheit statt Sozialismus“? Closing Remarks The true purpose of the law Grütters expressed honestly : " To make the purchase of the state for antiquities and coins and other works of art by market restrictions as cheaply as possible in Germany" is this: " Freedom instead of socialism " ?

29th July 2015, 04:59 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,184	Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

1st August 2015, 09:41 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,741	The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.

12th August 2015, 12:26 AM	#6
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	yes its purposely done to get their hands onto the "Volkseigentum" (citizen-belongings) sooner or later also our governemenr will follow.