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Old 24th January 2005, 03:29 AM   #1
mykeris
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Default Authenticity Of Keris

Hope to get some feedback from all forumites regarding this keris. Dont worry, I will not get offended easily on whatever comments passed for this keris....Free to comment. Got it from an old friend of mine. This keris is short and large, portable...and handy too. Please comment wheather is old or new . I am bit blur about this keris. Is this a Malay keris? Thanks in advance.
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Last edited by mykeris : 24th January 2005 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 24th January 2005, 10:40 AM   #2
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Well, MK, what you are showing us is what is known as a keris buda and is believed to be one of the oldest forms of keris. However, judging authenticity of these (and keris in general) from internet photos is always tricky, especially since so many modern reproduction of keris buda have been made and then artifically aged. That being said, the form you are showing would not be the oldest type as it has a seperate gonjo, the "guard" piece along the base of the blade.
On the down side the erosion of this blade does look to be quite even, a possible sign of artifical aging. On the up side the close-up of the pesi (tang) does seem to show some remnants of hair which was a common old way to secure the hilt tightly on the blade. Others here may be able to tell you more definitely,but without a hands on examination you may never know for sure.
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Old 24th January 2005, 10:58 AM   #3
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Smile Good points.

Thats a great comment from you Nechesh. I will take note on your points. We'll wait from the others as well. TQ.
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Old 24th January 2005, 09:57 PM   #4
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Newly made.

This kind of wear is caused by Hydrochloric Acid. Its too even and the pitting is extremely deep, giving the blade the look of a flint blade. There are a whole lot of these artificially aged bethok/buddha blades being made today. Just browse ebay. You'll find 3 or 4 usually.

The funny thing is, the legitimately old ones usually look to be in better shape than the new ones.

But hey, if it was given to you, whats to worry about?
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Old 24th January 2005, 10:54 PM   #5
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Thanks DAHenkel. I have many more to learn. Do you have photo samples of the real ones or do you own any of this kind, an original one? Pictures taken from the original ones would help. TQ
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Old 25th January 2005, 06:06 AM   #6
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There's now many new k. buda being produced in Indonesia to meet market demand, however none of those, in terms of its finishing, could match the prototype buda.

Your keris could be new or maybe ancient, no one knows, because till now I dont see anybody in this forum sending the right photos of original k.buda, mostly alarmed with assumptions without even seeing or owning one or may I say refrain to send one scared of being denied and condemned.

The overall physical and internal presentation of your keris,do invite me to have a second thought. In my humble opinion, I would rather categorise your keris as an 'early keris' not of original buda but bethok buda of later period which I think Allan Maisey is familiar off.

Severe pittings and corrosion of the blade not necessarily to mean it is the real one. I am sure the smith can produce uneven effects on a new blade any time. The hair found at the metuk acts as a 'spiritual strengthen tool' between the owner and the so called 'Chee' or energy of the keris.

Last edited by Sakhti777 : 25th January 2005 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 25th January 2005, 06:54 AM   #7
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Im really confused of this kind of keris. I'm sure all of u guys had seen a lot of it. Due to the abundance of it, how can we know which is the genuine stuff? Me myself have a tendancy to say it is a new keris if showed to me, but how can we be sure? Perhaps the one on front of our nose is the genuine thing. God knows. Is the keris buda in the late Mr. Bambang's encyclopedia genuine? I believe if i had the keris in the encyclopedia in my hands and showed it to others, they will plainly say that it is a fake. But, since it is in the book, perhaps majority of the keris lovers will say it is authentic. (Of course, since its from a credible source) What im trying to say is, both the so called "fake" and the "genuine" article looks damn similar. And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

In my opinion, if we have at least 2 or 3 samples of the so called genuine keris buda, we can have some bench mark on determining the authenticity. So, I'm begging u guys that have the genuine keris buda that u are at least 80% sure of the authenticity to show us the picture of the kerisses. At least we can evaluate the kerisses and disscuss some more, why it is genuine.
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Old 25th January 2005, 07:09 AM   #8
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Yes Rasdan, that's a wise thing to do. Show to us genuine photos of keris Buda and not excerpts. Bambang`s keris buda would have the same fate if posted to this forum. Can we hear from Paul De Souza?
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Old 25th January 2005, 12:12 PM   #9
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just a thought, would it not be just as useful, if not more so to post pictures of known fake types. if, as it was said, there are normally 3 or 4 on ebay all the time, a standard could be reached for people to reference to. no-one would go to a lot of trouble to make just one fake, without making a batch and dispersing it slowly onto a growing market.
at least those with less experience in keris (myself included) would know to doubt first. after 100+ years, there is less chance of coming across more than one identical genuine piece.
there was a seller in england who imported many fakes over the last 20 years (not s.e asian). as he brought them in bulk and sold them across the board, those that saw them would always recognise the type. i have seen pieces from these batches appearing now (years later) on well known, reliable websites and trustworthy auction sites innocently labelled as genuine. they are not to know as they didnt see them come in.
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Old 25th January 2005, 12:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakhti777
Your keris could be new or maybe ancient, no one knows, because till now I dont see anybody in this forum sending the right photos of original k.buda, mostly alarmed with assumptions without even seeing or owning one or may I say refrain to send one scared of being denied and condemned.


Nobody is condemning anybody here Sakhti - take my opinion or don't but please don't assume I don't know anything about what I'm talking about because I don't post photo's. There are plenty of photos of legitimate, provenanced keris of this sort out there. If you've got the time to scan and post them, please feel free. I however don't have that kind of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakhti777
I am sure the smith can produce uneven effects on a new blade any time.


And I am quite sure that this is in fact impossible, or very nearly impossible to recreate natural blade wear properly. Acids like HCL attack the entire surface of the blade. In the above example there is little or no pitting whatsoever. The surface of the blade has been more or less uniformly eaten away, leaving only the wide cratering effect that gives an almost flint blade-like appearance.

However, whether in relic or in archaeological conditions, rust attacks the surface of the blade irregularly. While surface rust may cover the entire blade, deep pitting only occurs where the rust is able to take root and eat deeply into the blade. Thus, the pitting will be irregular. In traditionally kept keris, where rust may have occurred on occasion and then arrested subsequently through cleaning the pitting will be highly localized and relatively minor in extent. The surface wear will be limited to the effects of warangan and other caustic substances used to clean and patinate the blade. Also, rust and wear will have a tendency to work along weld lines and even get in underneath the surface of poor welds, creating buckling.

While a metalurgist or someone with a background in metalurgy (Empu Kumis?) might be able to speak to this in more technical teminology and eplain the underlying reasons for how pitting and wear occurs, most of us have to rely on experience. Judging a blade is often the combination of many different inputs. Weight, feel, workmanship, etc. etc. Often the faker gets some things right but then blows something or another.

I'd say it is extraordinarily rare that a faker does get it all right and creates the type of work that will confuse an experienced collector or scholar. For the most part the fakers cannot afford to put the kind of effort needed to create a convincing piece of work. Its far easier and cheaper to create fakes that will take in the gullible and unsuspecting and mass produce them cheaply.

I would once again encourage anyone who has not done so to read back through the archives for relevant information. Many of us have been at this for 5 or more years and it is not easy to re-write everything each time the subject comes up.
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Old 25th January 2005, 09:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdan
And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

Hi Rasdan. I guess i'm on of those "esorteric guys". OK all you technophiles, shield your eyes, i'll try to make this quick. Objects of Power (OOPs ) are made by People of Power (POPs ). In this case we would be speaking about empus. I'm not so sure that any of the few real empus left in this world are spending much time making arcane forms of keris like the buda and if they did (i.e. if someone commissioned empu Djeno) then i would imagine there would be some clear provenance to the piece. Now POPs who are not smiths can make an object into an OOPs through intention and ritual. If i bought a newly made keris buda and made it my ritual athame it would indeed accumulate power thru use by a POPs. But i wouldn't count on aquiring a newly made keris buda and measuring much energy off it. Of course, ALL THINGS will have energy, it is the natural of the sub-atomic universe, but you know what i mean.
Sorry guys, i know that was painful for some, but i personally find it difficult to discuss keris whille dismissing it's esorteric side. Again it's a matter of intention, of creation and use. If we were talking about steak knives, i'm sure i would have to mention the meat.
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Old 25th January 2005, 09:30 PM   #12
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Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).
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Old 25th January 2005, 10:57 PM   #13
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I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.
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Old 26th January 2005, 12:26 AM   #15
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Thanks for digging up these old threads Rick. When we come back from that "dinner" we should all be pretty full.
Mykeris says "seeing is believing". I don't really see how. First of all, photos only tell so much. Any real analysis of any keris needs a hands-on examination, especially when it is the intended goal of the forger to deceive. Second, who's to say we will be looking at photos of true keris buda anyway. Famous, well established museums have had so-called masterpieces in their collections for years before finding them to be forgeries. Who's to say this isn't the case with those presented by well known authorities in the field. Their mistakes have often been pointed out in this very forum. Some scholars doubt the authenticity of the keris of Knaud, which has for years been touted as the oldest known keris blade (though it has mysteriuosly disappeared and only photographs remain). Even so there are really very few "authenticated" keris buda in existence. If i owned one i might just think twice before posting it on the forum so that forgers could get a real good look at it and improve on their forgeries. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really out to get you. Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.
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Old 26th January 2005, 01:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.


Yep, i completely agree. Rather than seeing the genuine article. Didnt thought of that before.
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Old 26th January 2005, 02:11 AM   #17
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Of course, there are examples to see on the web already. Two very well authenticated keris buda can be seen here (an this article is well worth the read): http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/
Here's another example, though i am unaware of it's provenance: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/.../java/kja21.htm
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Old 26th January 2005, 02:29 AM   #18
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Here are some more interesting photos and info: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/...rishistory1.htm
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Old 26th January 2005, 03:08 AM   #19
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Nechesh, I must thank you for being so helpful in extracting these pictures. The keris buda in that extract will surely face the same fate as others. I am not convinced at all. Lets have a real picture taken from an internationally recognised Keris Buda. You have any?

Here is a fake keris buda that has undergone HCL acid treatment. Hope you can see the difference.
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Last edited by Sakhti777 : 26th January 2005 at 03:36 AM.
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Old 26th January 2005, 03:35 AM   #20
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Sakhti, are you saying that you don't believe that the two keris buda that Alan Maisey presents in his article are authentic?
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Old 26th January 2005, 04:46 AM   #21
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Default Keris Budho

Hello dear all,

I'll try to joint in this thread 'cause need to discus about Keris Budho. So far, I never heard from Indonesian or Malay people that they can give some reason about Keris Budho. Yes..., many people have it, but they don't know about their keris, old or new made.
Look at the Muzium Siber, www.kerisjawa.tk, etc, you can see some image about Keris Budho. But, if I ask them, they can't give a guarantee that their keris is old.
In this thread, I look that some image demonstrate a new keris, although modificated like old keris.
TQ.
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Old 26th January 2005, 05:27 AM   #22
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From the site, most piece looks new. But, I'm not an expert. Just my opinion.
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Old 26th January 2005, 05:56 AM   #23
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Nechesh, I like you man. Not that we would not believe its authenticity. As Rasdan said earlier, anything that comes from a reliable source, we tend to take it for real even the keris is not. If that source comes from a newcomer, then we may have many assumptions in this forum. More problems would arise when keris is not undressed of its warangan during identification. Let it be clean until you could see fine grains of the blade.

Look at that. Thanks Sepang. Sure, a similar quality of blade as posted by Ria for his k.buda. Try undress the warangan, then you would see the reality.
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Old 26th January 2005, 10:14 AM   #24
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Default Many photos of Keris Budha but.... ???

Nechesh, one of two keris Budha that Alan Maisey presents in his article is a good piece. Knaud keris is a good work from 1342AD, but Budha period, I think before 900AD, or VIII - IX Century. Knaud keris made at 1342AD, same with a Majapahit (in Jawa), so that, the keris (in Jawa) can be called Tangguh Majapahit, Jenggala, Dhaha, Segaluh etc, not Kabudhan.
Tangguh Kabudhan kerisses, more simple with no pamor and any carved or relieve.
I agree with Shakti that the keris Budha posted by Ria in Muzium Siber is a new made. If I look clooser, the iron in that keris have no fibrous, although it made with a kelengan iron (no pamor).
This is just my oppinion, maybe I have wrong, forgive me.
Regards,
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Old 26th January 2005, 10:46 AM   #25
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Sepang, which of the two keris buda in the Maisey article would you say is good and which is false? Why? BTW, what does TQ mean?
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Old 26th January 2005, 11:09 AM   #26
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I think , the Knaud keris is a good piece and older than the Jalak Budho at the top. Jalak Budho like this, I think not made from 13Ctry, but 18-19Ctry. I'm consider that Jalak Budho not realy new, but it just a repro (putran). The Tikel Alis and Sogokan so clear and straight, diffrerent with a Jalak Budho kerisses. More like a Tangguh Sedayu or Sultan Agung kerisses, but I don't think so 'cause it just a Putran.

Sorry, TQ ? I mean thank U (thank qyu )
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Old 26th January 2005, 04:15 PM   #27
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great explanation , sepang ..

Last edited by Sang Keris : 27th January 2005 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 26th January 2005, 08:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepang
Nechesh, one of two keris Budha that Alan Maisey presents in his article is a good piece.


Sepang, perhaps you made an error. The keris of Knaud is not pictured in the Maisey article. There are 4 keris there, 2 buda and 2 later developments in keris. Are you confusing articles? Did you mean imply that only one of the keris buda presented here is as described or were you thinking of one of the other links?
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Old 26th January 2005, 11:32 PM   #29
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The authenticity of a keris can sometimes be gauged from the assessment of a number of factors. In general, these factors would be taken to be, but would not be limited to :-

percieved weight; the characteristics of the iron, steel and pamor; the physical appearance of the keris; the shape of the gonjo; the shape of the gandik; the shape of the blumbangan; the shape of the sogokan; the existence or not of an ada-ada ,its length and form; the execution of the kruwingan; the style of the luk; the shape of the wadidang, the method of construction; the quality of workmanship.

To correctly assess the iron, steel and pamor, a keris should be in stain.
If it is not in stain and all that can be seen is white metal, that white metal could be anything. It may not even be ferrous.

In a photograph it is very difficult to accurately present the three dimensional form of a keris, and the inter-relationship of proportion.

It is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that weight, unless the keris is handled.

Texture of the material can only be guessed at.

The competent application of the parameters listed above is possible if the person applying those parameters is a specialist in the appraisal of keris.

Such specialists are few and far between and are for the most part found in Java. However, even the very best of these specialists have been misled by forgers.

This discussion began with the presentation of several photographs of a keris of unusual form, with an eroded surface and out of stain.

The person who presented these photographs asked for an opinion regarding the age of the keris in the photographs.

I doubt that any Javanese keris specialist would be prepared to commit himself upon the basis of these photographs to a firm opinion on the authenticity of the keris which began this discussion. Further, I believe it would be unlikely that any competent authority would provide a definite opinion on the authenticity of any keris as difficult to appraise as the keris Buda form, upon the basis of photographs.

The opinions that have been given have provided interesting discussion, but the these opinions should be accepted for the friendly social exchanges that they are.
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Old 27th January 2005, 12:30 AM   #30
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martho suwignyo,
Many forumite would agree with you (i guess).
It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible.

Therefore, (in general) pictures are used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).
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