Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st September 2010, 02:38 AM   #1
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Question Please help ID these spears

Hello.
I originally picked these two spears up as part of a collection a few years ago, and then a friend told me that they were Moro. Until just the other day, I never thought anything about it, but now that I've taken another look at them, I think that they might be Indonesian. Possibly Javanese? The one with the longer blade measures 79 1/2" in overall length. The shaft is black palmwood, and the spearhead stands 13 1/4" from tip to the top of the brass ferrule.
The spear with the small leaf shaped blade measures 84 1/2" in overall length. The head is about 6 1/2" from tip to top of the brass ferrule. The shaft on this one is also Palm. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Joe
Attached Images
         

Last edited by Clubs & Arrows : 1st September 2010 at 03:28 PM.
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2010, 03:00 PM   #2
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

I think these spears come from Sumatra or Borneo. The one with the large spearhead could be a Moro Budiak. It probably is.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2010, 03:30 PM   #3
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Hi Henk,
Thank you for your help.

Best regards,
Joe
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2010, 05:21 PM   #4
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Hi Joe,

You're welcome.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2010, 06:42 PM   #5
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,256
Default

I also would Indonesia but not from Java. Most probable from Sumatra like Henk write.

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2010, 06:03 PM   #6
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Sajen,
Thank you for your help on figuring these out.

Best regards,
Joe
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2010, 06:38 PM   #7
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Smile

Close ups of the bases (methuk) of these spearheads might be enlightening .

Would also like to see the heads themselves photographed in daylight .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2010, 07:50 PM   #8
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Hi Rick,
Here are a few outdoor shots. Sorry about the shadows in some of the pics.

Thanks again for any help,
Joe
Attached Images
     
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 01:19 AM   #9
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Smile

Thank you .
It seems the larger one has pamor .
The facets on the methuk area are unfamiliar to me .

A four sided tang on the large spear ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 02:24 AM   #10
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Hi Rick,
Yes the tang is four sided. I've had both Moro and non-Moro opinions on this spear. Does the band of triangles encircling the shaft seem familiar? Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Joe
Attached Images
  
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 03:37 AM   #11
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Arrow

There are some differences in the tang construction of Javanese spears :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12310


The square tang is unusual to me; I admit to being puzzled .
I don't believe I've seen a square tang on a Javanese spear; that's not saying much though .

The head is firmly attached to the shaft, and not removable ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 02:14 PM   #12
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Hi Rick,
I was able to get the head out to photograph the tang. Any ideas on origin?

Thanks,
Joe
Attached Images
   
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 02:27 PM   #13
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Smile

I have seen Javanese spears with this blade profile .

What throws me off is from the Methuk to the tang ...
Usually this area shows more work in the completion; usually a flared part above the tang that hides it when mounted on a haft .

Any chance this could be from Nias ?

I sure can't anchor it to one particular area; it has both Indonesian and Moro aspects .

Last edited by Rick : 3rd September 2010 at 02:46 PM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 02:52 PM   #14
Clubs & Arrows
Member
 
Clubs & Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
Default

Rick,
When I purchased this from the previous owner's estate, I did also pick up a Nias stool, so it is possible. One of the problems is that when I purchased the spear, it was along with a lot of Philippine, Oceanic, African, and other Southeast Asian material. Kind of an ethnographic mixed bag. I'll certainly start looking towards Nias to see if I can find anything similar.

Thanks again,
Joe
Clubs & Arrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2010, 05:45 AM   #15
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

I cann't get rid of the idea this one is Phillipine.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2010, 05:52 AM   #16
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Arrow

It's tempting to do so Henk .
Me, I'm just not sure .
The blade looks like it has been ritually washed a few times .
I'm seeing a topographic surface on this blade .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2010, 09:22 AM   #17
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

I can imagine Rick. You mentioned before you see pamor on the blade. I tried to discover if i could see the same, maybe it is pamor indeed but i thought it were more forging lines of folding of the metal during forging. I also see some rustspurs. Only in the middle of the blade i see something, but in my opinion that is more twistcore. The blade is in my opinion more comparable with a Moro Budiak.
I cann't see the spurs of ritual washing of this blade on the pics. For me this is a blade i have to hold in my hands to give a good comment.
Fact is it is a beauty and very nice to discuss.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2010, 02:16 AM   #18
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,682
Default

I'm pretty sure, the larger one is not Moro - the flow of lines doesn't seem to fit...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 10:53 PM   #19
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,143
Default

Quote:
I'm pretty sure, the larger one is not Moro - the flow of lines doesn't seem to fit...


My feeling on the large lance head is Sumatra.
The hexagonal base makes me think of Atjeh. same as the outer line of the blade. The tang is a problem. Normally Atjeh or Sumatra spears have a round tappering tang with a twist near the end. and not this square type without the twist.

Maybe some mix bewteen Nias and Sumatra/ Atjeh influences ?

I have another strange spearhead for discussion.
Will open another thread in order not to confuse this one even more

Best regards,
Willem
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:43 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.