My new toys: Ottoman flintlock kubur

Valjhun · 15th October 2006, 02:34 PM

Dear Friends,

Just came back from a militaria show with these two puppies.

The bigger is a huge ottoman-greek flitlock pistol with beautiful silver decorations.

The smaller is a more common ottoman-balkan work, but with a nice miquelet lock.

Any comments?

Valjhun · 15th October 2006, 02:37 PM

second session...

I'm asking myself right now, why oriental firearms on this forum are not popular? Does everybody collects only blades or there is somwhere on the net some another ethnographic firearms forum? Or why?

Well folks, I think that it is a pitty to ignore firearms.

The Double D · 15th October 2006, 06:08 PM

There are plenty of websites for guns. Ethnographic guns could be construed to mean guns used by the British empire during the Victorian era. Certainly in line with a study of swordsof the Moro's in late 19th and early 20th Century which is done here. But would Victorian Guns or European swords of the 19th and 20th Century for that matter be in keeping with the spirit of this forum?

This board seems more focused on the artsy decorative ethnographic arms than the standard run of the mill working arms. Although the standard arms aren't turned away and the those beautifly decorated weapons have ceratinly been put use. Your two pistols fit right in here.

There use to be a Balkan Arms forum, but I haven't seen in a couple of years. I thought it was www.vicmart.com but looks like I am wrong.

By the way a nice set of pistols and they would be a most welcomed "decoration" in my house.

Nagawarrior · 15th October 2006, 07:04 PM

Very Nice pistols Valjhun. I like to collect firearms right along with swords. Firearms are an important part of ethnographic weaponry. Here is a picture of my sword display incorporating firearms.

Valjhun · 17th October 2006, 09:28 PM

Beautiful Nagawarrior! Nice kubur, rattail, rare tanchyka and a superb affedali!

I really like your display.

DD, Victorian pieces cannot keep with the spirit of this forum, but eastern 19th and 18th century can. Look, ottoman guns are purely ethnographic arms, victorian pieces are serial production. A jezail with brittish lock is not lesser to a shamshir with an standard europeanrun of the mill blade, isn't it?

I jus wanted to bring up also the other part of ethnographic arms collecting, wich is somehow rather ignored by this forum.

katana · 17th October 2006, 09:53 PM

Your points are well taken...I do have a minor interest in early firearms....the Moghul damascus muskets are beautifully constructed.
But, lets face it, the introduction of 'black powder' saw the gradual decline of the edged weapon and the traditional role of ethnic 'warriors'. An evolutionary change which also changed the 'ethics' of conflict and to a degee.... the mutual honour observed by the combattants.
One of the advantages of firearms ...besides their range....was the fact that ANYONE could quickly learn to use them......a warrior may take years to acquire his fighting skills, the Samurai and many others found this out to their cost.

Lee · 17th October 2006, 11:00 PM

You are more than welcome to discuss ethnographic firearms here. Indeed, the forum was renamed to 'Ethnographic Arms & Armor' when we migrated to vBulletin in order to encourage such discussion.

fernando · 19th October 2006, 08:45 AM

It is great that Dr.Jones gives this subject of firearms a clear definition.
Although the new Forum version holds a new title, Vickingsword remains in it,with all its history and projection out there.
One tends to think that this Forum is still only dedicated to blades discussion.
Maybe now some members come up with ethno firearms threads, as certainly this Forum will become richer with such diversity.
Thank you
fernando

The Double D · 19th October 2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

DD, Victorian pieces cannot keep with the spirit of this forum, but eastern 19th and 18th century can. Look, ottoman guns are purely ethnographic arms, victorian pieces are serial production.

I agree with you 100%

FenrisWolf · 28th January 2007, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Your points are well taken...I do have a minor interest in early firearms....the Moghul damascus muskets are beautifully constructed.
But, lets face it, the introduction of 'black powder' saw the gradual decline of the edged weapon and the traditional role of ethnic 'warriors'. An evolutionary change which also changed the 'ethics' of conflict and to a degee.... the mutual honour observed by the combattants.
One of the advantages of firearms ...besides their range....was the fact that ANYONE could quickly learn to use them......a warrior may take years to acquire his fighting skills, the Samurai and many others found this out to their cost.

Were you aware that at one point in time the Catholic Church attempted to ban crossbows as its era's 'weapon of mass destruction'? And most of the Italian city states at one point had bans on the private ownership of wheellock pistols as being the weapons of footpads and assasins? For that matter, it wasn't the crossbow or black powder that spelled the end of the sword in Europe, it was the longbow that started the trend at the Battle of Crecy (http://members.tripod.com/~midgley/crecy.html). For the first time massed missile fire decimated the opposing force before they could close to fight one-on-one. It took five hundred more years for the process to complete itself, but Crecy was the beginning of the end for the sword.

If you haven't seen it, there is a movie starring Sean Connery as the Raisuli, Sharif of the Berbers, etc. In it he triggers a confrontation between the Western superpowers who are all jockeying for possession of Morocco for strategic reason.

At one point Connery delivers a speech about the proper, honorable combat between warriors. First is with swords; sometimes that is not possible and rifles are used. He then laments the introduction of cannon and the machine guns that 'shoot many bullets promiscuously', and mentione the lack of honor in such weapons.

The movie may not be very realisitic on a number of levels, but it does speak to the passing of the Age of the Warrior in the face of the Industrial Revolution. Europe went through it a few centuries earlier, but the process was more gradual. The rest of the world got treated to it in a much more brutal fashion as the Age of Western Imperialism set out to "civilize" everyone else.

Fenris

Southerner · 28th January 2007, 05:24 PM

Surly if I remember correctly did not the samurai take up firearms in the form of copies of the Portuguese match locks? While other countries advanced to the flint lock the Japanese in there usual manor stuck with what they had and perfected it producing some of the finest (and now most sought after) matchlocks in existence! they still carried their swords though and adapted their code of honor to the new weapon. The samurai had reigned for near 2000 years it was more the protectionism and isolation they had enjoyed for so long finally failing that brought about the eventual decline and adoption of more modern weaponry.

Southerner

fernando · 28th January 2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southerner

Surly if I remember correctly did not the samurai take up firearms in the form of copies of the Portuguese match locks?

Sorry, am i confused or was it the peasants that took up firearms against the samurais and their lords, starting a new era in Japan ?

Bill M · 28th January 2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

If you haven't seen it, there is a movie starring Sean Connery as the Raisuli, Sharif of the Berbers, etc. In it he triggers a confrontation between the Western superpowers who are all jockeying for possession of Morocco for strategic reason.

At one point Connery delivers a speech about the proper, honorable combat between warriors. First is with swords; sometimes that is not possible and rifles are used. He then laments the introduction of cannon and the machine guns that 'shoot many bullets promiscuously', and mentione the lack of honor in such weapons.
Fenris

I belive this is the "Wind and the Lion." Always interesting to hear an arab with a Scottish accent. Been a long time since I saw the movie, but I remember it was a lot of fun. Seems like he kidnapped Candice Bergan and fought Teddy Roosevelt's (Brian Kieth) marines.

FenrisWolf · 28th January 2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry, am i confused or was it the peasants that took up firearms against the samurais and their lords, starting a new era in Japan ?

Yes and no; for the first few hundred years, firearms were simply one more weapon of the samurai, used in conjunction with their more traditional weapons. They stayed with the matchlocks and evolved them to a height seen nowhere else, but they were still an elite weapon, paid for and supplied by a lord to his troops.

The peasant levies didn't arise until the industrialization and Westernization of Japan, as glamorized in the Tom Cruise film "The Last Samurai". The families that controlled the Military-Industrial complex wanted to play in the game of empire-building, and the traditional families were trying to hold on to the old ways. The military raised armies out of the peasant class and rammed through laws banning the samurai. In the end Westernization won out. Tragically, you can now find more traditional, heirloom samurai swords in the US than in Japan.

15th October 2006, 02:34 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	My new toys: Ottoman flintlock kubur Dear Friends, Just came back from a militaria show with these two puppies. The bigger is a huge ottoman-greek flitlock pistol with beautiful silver decorations. The smaller is a more common ottoman-balkan work, but with a nice miquelet lock. Any comments? Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 15th October 2006 at 04:01 PM.

15th October 2006, 02:37 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	second session... I'm asking myself right now, why oriental firearms on this forum are not popular? Does everybody collects only blades or there is somwhere on the net some another ethnographic firearms forum? Or why? Well folks, I think that it is a pitty to ignore firearms. Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 15th October 2006 at 02:47 PM.

17th October 2006, 09:53 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Your points are well taken...I do have a minor interest in early firearms....the Moghul damascus muskets are beautifully constructed. But, lets face it, the introduction of 'black powder' saw the gradual decline of the edged weapon and the traditional role of ethnic 'warriors'. An evolutionary change which also changed the 'ethics' of conflict and to a degee.... the mutual honour observed by the combattants. One of the advantages of firearms ...besides their range....was the fact that ANYONE could quickly learn to use them......a warrior may take years to acquire his fighting skills, the Samurai and many others found this out to their cost. Last edited by katana; 17th October 2006 at 11:31 PM.

19th October 2006, 08:45 AM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	a clear definition It is great that Dr.Jones gives this subject of firearms a clear definition. Although the new Forum version holds a new title, Vickingsword remains in it,with all its history and projection out there. One tends to think that this Forum is still only dedicated to blades discussion. Maybe now some members come up with ethno firearms threads, as certainly this Forum will become richer with such diversity. Thank you fernando

28th January 2007, 05:24 PM	#11
Southerner Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Stanley Falkland Islands Posts: 4	Samurai and firearms Surly if I remember correctly did not the samurai take up firearms in the form of copies of the Portuguese match locks? While other countries advanced to the flint lock the Japanese in there usual manor stuck with what they had and perfected it producing some of the finest (and now most sought after) matchlocks in existence! they still carried their swords though and adapted their code of honor to the new weapon. The samurai had reigned for near 2000 years it was more the protectionism and isolation they had enjoyed for so long finally failing that brought about the eventual decline and adoption of more modern weaponry. Southerner

15th October 2006, 06:08 PM	#3
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	There are plenty of websites for guns. Ethnographic guns could be construed to mean guns used by the British empire during the Victorian era. Certainly in line with a study of swordsof the Moro's in late 19th and early 20th Century which is done here. But would Victorian Guns or European swords of the 19th and 20th Century for that matter be in keeping with the spirit of this forum? This board seems more focused on the artsy decorative ethnographic arms than the standard run of the mill working arms. Although the standard arms aren't turned away and the those beautifly decorated weapons have ceratinly been put use. Your two pistols fit right in here. There use to be a Balkan Arms forum, but I haven't seen in a couple of years. I thought it was www.vicmart.com but looks like I am wrong. By the way a nice set of pistols and they would be a most welcomed "decoration" in my house.

15th October 2006, 07:04 PM	#4
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Very Nice pistols Valjhun. I like to collect firearms right along with swords. Firearms are an important part of ethnographic weaponry. Here is a picture of my sword display incorporating firearms.

17th October 2006, 09:28 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Beautiful Nagawarrior! Nice kubur, rattail, rare tanchyka and a superb affedali! I really like your display. DD, Victorian pieces cannot keep with the spirit of this forum, but eastern 19th and 18th century can. Look, ottoman guns are purely ethnographic arms, victorian pieces are serial production. A jezail with brittish lock is not lesser to a shamshir with an standard europeanrun of the mill blade, isn't it? I jus wanted to bring up also the other part of ethnographic arms collecting, wich is somehow rather ignored by this forum.

17th October 2006, 11:00 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	You are more than welcome to discuss ethnographic firearms here. Indeed, the forum was renamed to 'Ethnographic Arms & Armor' when we migrated to vBulletin in order to encourage such discussion.