Doc Holiday's mystery shotgun: October 26, 1881 OK Corral

David R · 9th August 2019, 03:50 PM

Regarding barrel lengths, the Wells Fargo gun I handled 40 odd years ago had 18 inch barrels, which is the average for coach guns. I have a SB muzzle loader of such, and the barrel is that length as well. They are not for long range use, but made to be quick to get into action, aim, and deliver a wide spread to make up for the lack of time to aim.
Back in the day, I was an avid collector of American gun books and magazines, and they often had contemporary photo's of, and articles about, gunfights and Posse's. In those circumstances the standard DB full length 12 bore looms large in the hands of the protagonists, especially local men deputised for the occasion . They all had one, they were all used to using one, and did not expect to be surprised by the perp' they were chasing. It looks very much like if a shoot out was expected, it was the weapon of choice even for a sheriff or marshal.
Two different scenarios, two different demands on the weapon.

kronckew · 9th August 2019, 08:20 PM

back in the States I had a Two-hole hammered shootsgun in 20ga. short barrels, choked full and modified, was good for small game in the brush and woods, birds, not so much tho. Was a favourite. A 12ga ex police riot gun, short barrelled pump with an extended magazine tube & web sling lived under my bed. Justincase. No choke at all. Not terribly good for ducks...unless you were standing on them.

David R · 9th August 2019, 08:37 PM

The load makes a big difference as well, buckshot rather than bird.... Or even Buck and Ball!
Something I think worth pointing out, short barrels are not just for, and often nothing to do with, concealment. It's more to do with handling in confined spaces, as in indoors, in a trench or on a coach drivers position. Getting a wide spread of shot, like a blunderbuss. Speed of bringing it to bear. Ease of carry. The WWI US military shotgun, did not need to be hidden.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 10:01 PM

Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!!
Great perspective and much appreciated.
As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns.

Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly;
1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly
marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice
may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus
far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James
Bartz (1993) hoping for some info.

2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware
stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why?
It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many
'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not
on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes).

3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase
nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example
with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples
address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference
to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind.

Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it?

Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles.

One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.

David R · 9th August 2019, 10:56 PM

If you are trying to identify a coaching gun, as opposed to a sawn-off, there are things to look at.
Barrel taper, if it is made as a short barrel gun, then it will have a fast and elegant taper, rather than an abrupt end with an awkward profile and excess metal at the muzzle.
The rib, either as midrib or under-rib will have a finished end rather than being open, which is the dead giveaway of a home made alteration.
It will balance, with the but-stock proportioned to the length and weight of the barrels.
In other words, whatever the calibre and age, think more on the lines of a carbine, rather than a sawn down musket or rifle.
In the Middle East, you can find quite a few mini-pieces made as serious weapons for the saddle boot, sometimes called knee-guns because they were braced on the knee rather than the shoulder. More like a shoulder stocked pistol than a cut down shoulder arm.
There has always been a demand and a use for a handy sub length long arm. They were issuing mini AR15's (?) for vehicle personnel in Vietnam... or so I have been told.
I also remember a shooter (British) bemoaning the change in the law that meant the handy DB gun at 23" barrel length was no longer legal, because it was so good in dense reed and marsh hunting.

David R · 9th August 2019, 10:59 PM

Oh, as for marking guns... If the firm paid for them, it wanted to keep them and not have them "walk"!

And another edit, a Wells Fargo Depot would store valuables. They would need guns to protect such from the scalawags and bandits that abounded in the Old West.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 11:21 PM

Thanks very much David, there is a great deal to understanding the dynamics of these coach guns and shotguns themselves. Getting back to the subject at hand, I am hoping to find more detail on the gun of Holliday, and if indeed Virgil did get it from the Wells Fargo office.
It does make sense that they would mark it Wells Fargo as it would be less likely to be stolen, and as you note, the office itself had to store valuables. With that it would seem the guns would not be likely to 'walk away' as there must have been a guard on duty at all times.

9th August 2019, 08:37 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,055	The load makes a big difference as well, buckshot rather than bird.... Or even Buck and Ball! Something I think worth pointing out, short barrels are not just for, and often nothing to do with, concealment. It's more to do with handling in confined spaces, as in indoors, in a trench or on a coach drivers position. Getting a wide spread of shot, like a blunderbuss. Speed of bringing it to bear. Ease of carry. The WWI US military shotgun, did not need to be hidden. Attached Images Last edited by David R; 9th August 2019 at 08:52 PM.

9th August 2019, 03:50 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,055	Regarding barrel lengths, the Wells Fargo gun I handled 40 odd years ago had 18 inch barrels, which is the average for coach guns. I have a SB muzzle loader of such, and the barrel is that length as well. They are not for long range use, but made to be quick to get into action, aim, and deliver a wide spread to make up for the lack of time to aim. Back in the day, I was an avid collector of American gun books and magazines, and they often had contemporary photo's of, and articles about, gunfights and Posse's. In those circumstances the standard DB full length 12 bore looms large in the hands of the protagonists, especially local men deputised for the occasion . They all had one, they were all used to using one, and did not expect to be surprised by the perp' they were chasing. It looks very much like if a shoot out was expected, it was the weapon of choice even for a sheriff or marshal. Two different scenarios, two different demands on the weapon.

9th August 2019, 08:20 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	back in the States I had a Two-hole hammered shootsgun in 20ga. short barrels, choked full and modified, was good for small game in the brush and woods, birds, not so much tho. Was a favourite. A 12ga ex police riot gun, short barrelled pump with an extended magazine tube & web sling lived under my bed. Justincase. No choke at all. Not terribly good for ducks...unless you were standing on them.

9th August 2019, 10:01 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!! Great perspective and much appreciated. As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns. Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly; 1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James Bartz (1993) hoping for some info. 2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why? It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many 'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes). 3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind. Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it? Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles. One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.

9th August 2019, 10:56 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,055	If you are trying to identify a coaching gun, as opposed to a sawn-off, there are things to look at. Barrel taper, if it is made as a short barrel gun, then it will have a fast and elegant taper, rather than an abrupt end with an awkward profile and excess metal at the muzzle. The rib, either as midrib or under-rib will have a finished end rather than being open, which is the dead giveaway of a home made alteration. It will balance, with the but-stock proportioned to the length and weight of the barrels. In other words, whatever the calibre and age, think more on the lines of a carbine, rather than a sawn down musket or rifle. In the Middle East, you can find quite a few mini-pieces made as serious weapons for the saddle boot, sometimes called knee-guns because they were braced on the knee rather than the shoulder. More like a shoulder stocked pistol than a cut down shoulder arm. There has always been a demand and a use for a handy sub length long arm. They were issuing mini AR15's (?) for vehicle personnel in Vietnam... or so I have been told. I also remember a shooter (British) bemoaning the change in the law that meant the handy DB gun at 23" barrel length was no longer legal, because it was so good in dense reed and marsh hunting.

9th August 2019, 10:59 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,055	Oh, as for marking guns... If the firm paid for them, it wanted to keep them and not have them "walk"! And another edit, a Wells Fargo Depot would store valuables. They would need guns to protect such from the scalawags and bandits that abounded in the Old West.

9th August 2019, 11:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thanks very much David, there is a great deal to understanding the dynamics of these coach guns and shotguns themselves. Getting back to the subject at hand, I am hoping to find more detail on the gun of Holliday, and if indeed Virgil did get it from the Wells Fargo office. It does make sense that they would mark it Wells Fargo as it would be less likely to be stolen, and as you note, the office itself had to store valuables. With that it would seem the guns would not be likely to 'walk away' as there must have been a guard on duty at all times.