Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th January 2019, 04:01 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default Sword guard for comments

Guard now in hands; new pictures uploaded.
I will later try and restore some contents of the conversations we had, as previous ones were lost; my mistake .


.
Attached Images
       
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 01:44 AM   #2
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 238
Default

Robert-Jean Charles in ÉTUDE SUR LES ÉPÉES DU MOYEN ÂGE AU 17° SIÈCLE

http://www.bertrand-malvaux.com/fr/p...70-siecle.html

Focuses on the early evolution of the sword guard in the late XVth early XVIth century. Taking into account especially Iberian examples. He has nothing like your guard.

Not in Norman, Rapier, and Smallsword. Not in Seitz. Not in Ada Bruhm.

On the other hand, this is the equivalent piece a cup hilt would have without the bell...

The closest example i find is the XVI century hilt El Cid Tizona blade has:
Attached Images
 

Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 01:56 AM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 02:15 AM   #3
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

That's it! That's the sword I saw and remembered had a similar guard! I kept thinking for some bizarre reason that it was on a Chinese sword!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 11:04 AM   #4
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Let me first feel much obliged to Victrix, Udo and Mark for their participation in this topic's previous incarnation.
But of course, midleburgo, this is much too evident to be otherwise. The thing is that, i and my fellow collector skipped such hypothesis from the beginning as we became blinded by the double tang hole "detail". This differentiation only prevents us from calling it a replica in a strict sense but, this guard has definitely followed the Tizona style.
Now, what are we facing here ? The seller said this was found in the manor house of a family with military tradition, in the center of Madrid. Could it be ... or not. But then, why has the smith made it with with such particular difference; to fit a blade also with a particular shape ... or some kind of personal (or customer) innovation ? i (also) have paged a dozen books and found no guard with such mounting style.
A question i would ask: how old would it be ? It looks as having been hand beaten made ... no cast seams.
And worthy of note are also its specs.; 22 cms. between guard ends and an impressive 600 grams.


.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 02:50 PM   #5
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 238
Default

What I find weird is not the present piece design, which seems logical in the evolution of sword guards, but the lack of similar examples.
1)The first possibility is that it is a real early XVIth century Iberian hilt. But these swords are fairly light. 600 grams just for the guard is a lot.

2)I have been checking copies of Tizona, some of them well 130 years old, and none have that design in the lower guard. There have been pictures of Tizona for longer, some 160 years. If somebody wanted to make an accurate copy that was easy. But your piece is just a resemblance. I wonder why. If somebody would have just the picture from Laurent below, possibly he would have come with that design, not knowing what is at the other side, but the rest of the hilt would have been closer to Tizona.

3)Another possibility is that the guard was made in XVIIth or XVIIIth centuries for a San Miguel or Santiago church image. They wanted something looking medieval but at the same time technically closer to what was done at that time.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 03:12 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 03:50 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

All points noted; lots of reasoning ... thanks a lot.
I take it that, the smith who made this guard (or whoever commissioned it), was familiar with arms making and not passive of having to wonder what would be in the Tizona's opposite guard side, when looking at a flat drawing or a picture; meaning to say that this design was intentional and served a purpose ... be it for practical reasons or a challenging essay.
I myself, as you, keep thinking of its sturdiness; a guard with this weight would call for a blade and pommel to match with, perhaps also an unnecessary overweight for the relative solidity of a Saint's image; my uneducated guess.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 04:55 PM   #7
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

I found the following items in Heribert Seitz, Blankwaffen, Volume I and in the catalogue of the Wallace Collection, European Arms and Armour, nr. 539
corrado26
Attached Images
   
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 05:32 PM   #8
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Udo, the main problem remains in that all of this type you see out there have side rings in their guards and not a full ellipse where both tang and ricasso have to pass through solid holes.
Amazing; i was precisely paging the Wallace collection and also recall having once taken some lousy clandestine pictures in the Sant'Angelo castle museum.
If only Victrix has kept the perfect drawing he has previously uploaded in the original thread !


.
Attached Images
   
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #9
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 672
Default

Boa noite,

The drawing is still with us. Luckily I scribbled something unrelated important on the other side so I kept it with me when I came home from my ski trip. I think the width of the tang should be narrower than the ricasso. The guard hole for the tang is smaller than for the ricasso.

According to the Cantar de Mio Cid the Tizona was won from a previous owner King Yucef [Yussef] of Valencia. So there is a possibility that this guard type is Moorish rather than Spanish or Portuguese.
Attached Images
 
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 07:20 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Godnatt victrix .
Thanks for bringing back that good drawing. Yes, it is reasonable to consider that the tang is narrower than the ricasso. In my sketch i only cared to emphasize the blade passing through the holes.
Well, the myth of El Cid and the Tizona saga are "beads of another rosary". Experts debate the veracity of both subjects as they appear nowadays; a XI century sword with a XVI century hilt AND ALL THAT
I recall watching the movie with Charlton Heston in my youth; El Cid already dead, being tied to his horse to ride in front of the Kings army, to make the Moors believe he came back from his tomb !


.

Last edited by fernando; 30th January 2019 at 08:04 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2019, 10:51 PM   #11
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 238
Default

From the examples above (the 1610 Solingen one excepted), I understand that there was no diminution of the blade broadness before reaching the cross.

I am wondering if that arrangement was not usual because it will not allow the normal vibration of the blade when hitting. You have many kinds of cup hilts, but in most the shell is sustained from the cross. In a few, the blade is trapped at both points.

Actually, in the movie the used a replica with the XVIth century hilt... And Charlton from XIth century does not take the advantage of crossing the finger...also because the grip is longer than in the original.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 11:31 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2019, 12:21 PM   #12
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

That would switch us back to the 'genuine' Tizona riddle.
In a way, Charlton's setup would be the correct one, if we think of the period the actual episode took place; no blunt ricasso, thus no way to place your fingers but all of them in the actual grip, providing enough (grip) length is applied. Whereas the Tizona (short grip) example as today is brought to us, suggests a ricasso finger grip which only appeared a few centuries later.
Take a look at this XVII century exponential example, in that only three fingers would fit onto the grip, two fingers left to hold the ricasso.
Note that the quillons are welded to the cup bowl rim, and not fixed with interior extensions, the first being a (more) Portuguese way.
... And don't forget to read my suggestions with a pinch of salt; i am only playing by ear .

(picture courtesy of "As Armas e os Barões" de Eduardo Nobre).

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2019, 05:16 PM   #13
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 672
Default

See attached
Attached Images
 
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #14
bvieira
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
Default

Hello,

One thing i can assure, this guard as nothing to do with original "tizona" style swords, the swordsmiths of that age would not fail to do heterogeneous design on both side of the guard, the guard has big geometrial imperfections, something not acceptable in a first class sword or by first class swordsmiths.

BV
bvieira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2019, 02:02 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Bruno, i guess we all know this is not an original Tizona guard. Also we know there was only one so called Tizona, and that 'millions' were copied through time, thus creating a sword style. We were just wondering the purpose for this so sturdy (600 grams) atypical example being made following the Tizona style; construction perfection in comparison with early swords not being at stake.
But speaking of Tizona (originally Tizon) a sword that allegedly Diaz de Vivar was presented by King Yucef, this has been subject of experts considerations, with its XII century style hilt added in the time of the Catholic Kings period with a Spanish-Moorish period style blade. Maybe the Tizona chronicle has not yet ended.
... But this thread has had its purpose achieved.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.