Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th February 2019, 06:08 PM   #31
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,298
Cool

Hello Detlef,

Quote:
The good thing by this is that when you want to sell it one day that there are no CITES prohibition on it by international trade!

Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 06:34 PM   #32
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,298
Exclamation

Quote:
i can't state more strongly that in trying to remove the hilt, which i agree is worth attempting, it is the ivory hilt that is more likely to break before the tang will, so do work slowly and carefully. No matter how nice it would be to remove this hilt it is not worth cracking or breaking it.

I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 07:12 PM   #33
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,298
Post

Hello Greg,

Quote:
A few more photos - it has cleaned up quite nicely and with interesting rose tint to the blade and Iím wondering if anyone can educate me on the chemistry of the steel composition used for keris forging. I am very interested in blacksmithing but am ignorant of what the makeup of these blades might be and what would influence the colour - i.e. might it have a bit of copper in the mix or would a high phosphorous content possibly contribute to the tint?

The iron sources (as well as iron ore origins) utilized in keris production are extremely diverse and often get traded from quite distant regions. There usually is a central layer of steel (resulting in an edge that can be hardened) which gets sandwiched between layers of very mild pamor steel (often laminated from 2 or more different irons which may show contrast upon etching).

I suspect that the rose color tinge originates from the copper leached from the selut. After disassembling, another short "wash" with vinegar will probably yield more neutral colors (it may be preferable to rub the blade with lemon or lime first)...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 07:17 PM   #34
Larks
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Sth East Queensland Australia
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai


Understood Kai and I agree that the tang is likely to be quite heavily rusted. Iíll try again over the weekend but I agree how fragile the tang is likely to be, given the state of the blade before cleaning, so I am very wary of breaking it.
Larks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 08:07 PM   #35
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...

Kai, i am not saying there is no regulation, but AFAIK currently it is completely legal to buy and trade in hippo ivory in the USA. I am not sure about other countries, but it is openly sold at online websites. A simple google search of Hippo tusk for sale will give you numerous websites that sell it.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 08:38 PM   #36
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Detlef,


Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...


After search I have to agree but like David told I was aware about some sites where you can buy legal hippo ivory!?
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 08:52 PM   #37
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,526
Default

Just read a little bit more, the trade with hippo ivory is free but need to be documented whatever this mean. But there seems to be regulations on it.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2019, 11:45 PM   #38
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Just read a little bit more, the trade with hippo ivory is free but need to be documented whatever this mean. But there seems to be regulations on it.

Regards,
Detlef

Well, i would assume that the documentation needs to be on the sellers end just to make sure that the tusks were legally harvested. But I'm as the buyer, can go to one of these websites, click on the tusk i want, pay by credit card and receive it in the mail. One of the companies i saw only ships in the USA, but others were international.
Now, i do not know what the law is regarding antique and carved specimens like this hilt. But since the regulations on purchasing new hip tusks seems fairly lax compared to elephant which is completely banned, i would imaging there is a way to sell a keris like this legally if one were so disposed.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2019, 11:20 AM   #39
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,298
Post

Hello Detlef and David,

CITES primarily regulates international trade. But mind you, it's the national legislations which are trying to implement the international convention (and additional treaties) and, thus, the rules differ.

Some of the CITES member states decided to surpass the international agreements for a variety of reasons or notions, for example the US with the complete import stop for African elephants (for whatever reason, hunting trophies can be exempt though if I remember correctly), or some US states with even stricter bans of intrastate sale.

It is the paradox of the CITES approach that international trade shall be regulated while it does not touch national trade/utilization of the same organism: If there is no additional national legislation, you can legally buy any CITES-regulated creature at any local market and have it cooked at the next restaurant - you can't bring it into another country for conservation breeding purposes though (without doing all the official paperwork and obtaining CITES permits). Local consumption/utilization of natural resources is usually not the driving force for extinction; howeever, in larger countries even nation-wide trade can be just as devastating. Most countries have implemented legislation which also addresses use of natural resources within its borders; enforcement is much more likely to be insufficient though.

Ironically, someone offering freshly-hunted hippo might have a relatively easy time in obtaining necessary papers. When Greg bought the keris, he probably did not got any receipt; even if there was a receipt, it probably would not be specific enough to allow positive identification. So, there probably is not any valid documentation (which is needed for the permits); of course, this is true for quite a large amount of antique collector's pieces. There are certain relaxations for fully worked craft but you still have to provide documentation.

Even if you had all the needed papers and a valid reason for international transfer (depending on the respective appendix the source organism currently is listed in), the fees for obtaining certificates and permits may be pretty high compared to the price an average hilt in not-perfect condition might fetch.

Yes, hippo can be commercially traded. It is regulated though and it may be tough to conform to all regulations. Be sure to seek for an update rather than just relying on "current" practises...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2019, 11:39 AM   #40
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,016
Default

When a cautious man sees a steamroller coming down the road, he moves to one side and goes around it.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2019, 08:31 PM   #41
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
When a cautious man sees a steamroller coming down the road, he moves to one side and goes around it.

Indeed...and sometimes there are numerous ways to avoid the oncoming crusher.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2019, 11:01 PM   #42
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
But since the regulations on purchasing new hip tusks seems fairly lax compared to elephant which is completely banned, i would imaging there is a way to sell a keris like this legally if one were so disposed.


That's exactly what I think. It will be more easy to sell antique hippo ivory as elephant or sperm whale ivory.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:28 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.