what were the working blades of India?

KuKulzA28 · 19th June 2009, 08:11 PM

Interestingly, I've been finding it very hard to find the working blades of nations... most resources speak volumes on swords and spears and such, but unless you're talking about a culture where the tool and weapon were one (such as an ax, machete, golok, or parang) they are silent when it comes to the more mundane cutlery that was the commoners weapon, tool, and prized possession. All I know is that some Indian weapons had application outside of war... such as the Molpah and Ayda Katti, or katars when tiger-hunting, etc. I know India is a large place and has many different peoples and societies, ranging from the metropolitan where most common-folk did not own weapons, to the more tribal, where every man was expected to be or have been a warrior.

Does anyone have examples or sources of tradition Indian work blades?

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2009, 04:23 PM

It’s an interesting question you ask, and the answer is yes. There are other weapons than the ones you mention. Straight or tulwar blades swords, often with hunting scenes chiselled on the blades, kukris were also used in India, although they were not so common as many other weapon types and the pichangatti from Coorg – attached. There are, no doubt, others especially if you look for the tribal weapons, but it would be interesting to see what other can come up with.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2009, 05:08 PM

Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required.

As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger.

The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse.

As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended.

Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only.

These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon.,

All best regards,
Jim

Rick · 20th June 2009, 05:31 PM

I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 05:16 PM

from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality..
it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent..
also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts..
another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end..

i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools..
unlike south east asian tools..

Rick · 21st June 2009, 05:50 PM

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 05:55 PM

ariel · 21st June 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

And I always thought that Ram Daos are things of the past:-)

KuKulzA28 · 22nd June 2009, 12:18 AM

Thanks for the very informative replies!

That's very interesting... the forward-curved, sickle-like billhook blades are very similar to the working blades in Taiwan... they did not use the stereotypical straight machete for work, it was the curved "fat sickle" type of the blade... in Taiwan there too was a good distinction between war and work blades (to some degree). Although the Aborigines (Yuan Zhu Min) often used their headhunting blades for survival and fighting... when Chinese peasants revolted against the Dutch, they use the biggest blade they had... the curved rice-knife or the billhook style blade. Street brawls and fights often involved spears, cleavers, dao, axes, etc.

sirupate · 22nd June 2009, 09:25 AM

In Nepal the the slashers/sickles are used much more now, as the carry of kukri is now pretty much prohibited, unless up in the hills, or in the jungle for protection which Dave and I did;

And obviously security Guards

Generaly the kukri is one of those blades which is dual purpose, both a general user, but also a weapon, although there are obvious exceptions to this rule.

KuKulzA28 · 22nd June 2009, 04:16 PM

Very cool!

I noticed this guy on [edited O.A. link] looks like a nicer version of the blade type that ausjulius linked to!

[note, try the *sold* section of the site for examples]

KuKulzA28 · 3rd December 2009, 04:57 AM

Here's a pic of an aruval...

Anyone have examples of one in their collections?

Not that I know much, but they seem to be popular in voilent Tamil movies.

spiral · 3rd December 2009, 09:49 AM

When I visited Nepal 5 years ago kukri, kora, sickles, bill hooks, rudimentry all metal knives etc.etc. were all widley used in Nepal.

Heres a group of devotees Last week at Bariyapur Nepal on their way to behead 10,000 buffalo & 240,000 chicken, pigeons, goats, pigs etc.to appease the goddess Gadhimai

The slaughter at the festival & many weapons/tools used can be seen at IKRHS in both photos & videao. { This is not for the squemish it looks like an open air abatour.But as I eat lots of meat what can i say.}

Spiral

linky.

Atlantia · 3rd December 2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

When I visited Nepal 5 years ago kukri, kora, sickles, bill hooks, rudimentry all metal knives etc.etc. were all widley used in Nepal.

Heres a group of devotees Last week at Bariyapur Nepal on their way to behead 10,000 buffalo & 240,000 chicken, pigeons, goats, pigs etc.to appease the goddess Gadhimai

The slaughter at the festival & many weapons/tools used can be seen at IKRHS in both photos & videao. { This is not for the squemish it looks like an open air abatour.But as I eat lots of meat what can i say.}

Spiral

linky.

Hi Spiral,

Many thanks for your consideration of fellow forumites by not posting any explicit pictures and the warning.
I certainly wouldn't want to see it

But am glad to have the choice to still enjoy the 'technical' aspects of this discussion whilst being able to avoid accidentally viewing the 'practical applications' of some of the items in question.

I once knew a chap, retired Colonel who was 'surgeon general' (Or whatever the title is) for Ghurka regiment back in the 50s. He told some rather graphic tales about this sort of thing and the general love of sharp things to the point of him often having to stitch soldiers back up from them frequently 'accidentally' cutting each other.
When he retired they presented him with a 'sword' sized Kuk which hung over his mantlepiece in Devon.
Presumably one used for this sort of thing.

Regards
Gene

spiral · 3rd December 2009, 09:46 PM

Thanks Gene, for your comments & understanding, Yes indeed the pictures are not always good to see, even on the ikrhs link I advoided sharing those of obviously injured & distresed animals.

I feel sorry for the animals but its not my country or culture & I know I eat meat evry day so who am I to sit in public judgement.

Fascinating story of your surgeon friend, most officers come away with a kothimara & either a service issue, private purchase or villigers kukri, the men he looked after must have respected him deeply if they gave him a true sacraficial piece .

In respect of your sensebilities, heres a couple more just showing the devotees & tools/weapons.

Spiral

ariel · 3rd December 2009, 10:57 PM

Well, animal sacrifice aside, another "working" example would be Nagas Dao.

fernando · 4th December 2009, 02:46 PM

Hey, Rick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

Doesn't this one look like mine ?
I still try and figure out what mine would be; probably a tool/weapon ... but where from

.

Sorry for the hijack, KuKulz

Fernando

.

spiral · 4th December 2009, 02:55 PM

Heres a few other working blade examples In Dharan & Kirtipur back in 2005...

Although some butchers {particularily in Dharan} use kukris, in many areas they use these more strangely cuved cleaver type tools { Photo from kathmandu by a freind there & sent to me a couple of years ago.}

spiral

Rick · 4th December 2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hey, Rick

Doesn't this one look like mine ?
I still try and figure out what mine would be; probably a tool/weapon ... but where from

.

Sorry for the hijack, KuKulz

Fernando

.

Yup Fernando, quite similar in form .
I don't know if the Nepali version has a socket mounted handle .

Spiral ?

spiral · 4th December 2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yup Fernando, quite similar in form .
I don't know if the Nepali version has a socket mounted handle .

Spiral ?

Sorry Fernando somehow I missed your post. I could be wrong but yours doesn't realy look like Nepalese work to my eye.

Rick the few Ive seen had ferrules on the grip rather than socketed blades.

Spiral

Henk · 4th December 2009, 06:59 PM

This piece discussed some time ago as a javanese machete has the same hilt attachment as the machete of Fernando.

Looks like an aruval. Is it after all an Indian or nepalese piece?

fernando · 5th December 2009, 05:04 PM

Hi Henk,
The wooden handle looks alike, but the socket of mine is very particular, in that it is an extension of the blade; no steps, all a smooth continuity.
Fernando

Rick · 5th December 2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Sorry Fernando somehow I missed your post. I could be wrong but yours doesn't realy look like Nepalese work to my eye.

Rick the few Ive seen had ferrules on the grip rather than socketed blades.

Spiral

Thanks Spiral .
The picture was taken by my nephew who was attending a Nepali wedding .

I wasn't invited ...

Henk · 6th December 2009, 09:04 AM

Hi Fernando,

My socket is not an extension of the blade but attached to the blade and finished as was it an extension of the blade. But the weldings are vissible. It is more the similarity with the handle.
The blade looks more like an aruval.

I'm still wondering if mine is an Indian or Nepalese piece after all?

Tatyana Dianova · 6th December 2009, 04:03 PM

Presumably the pair of rice sickles from Nepal:

G. McCormack · 6th December 2009, 07:44 PM

Great thread! Nice to see all these pics of 'working blades' doing work! Serves as a good reminder- the forum is about WEAPONS not butterfly nets.

Some of those pics from that festival are really powerful- the silhouetted image of a Kora in profile see through dense mist/smoke, pretty eerie.

fernando · 6th December 2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

... Nice to see all these pics of 'working blades' doing work! Serves as a good reminder- the forum is about WEAPONS not butterfly nets...

I hope that encouraging such procedure will not lead us to other grounds, like starting to post in the open the type of explicit images that are hidden in the link, which would not be the vocation of this forum ... in my humble perspective

.
Study and investigation of weapons, yes; that would be what the forum is about. Not (necessarily) the culture of weapons in the theatre of crude action, other than in an unfrequent contextual support.
Of course i might be wrong, but this is the way i feel it and i had to express it.
Fernando

Rick · 6th December 2009, 09:15 PM

I think the ones that were posted in the forum were fine .

We don't do gore .

fernando · 6th December 2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think the ones that were posted in the forum were fine .

We don't do gore .

Gore, that's the term; it could have saved me a lot of words.
This ting of being an illiterate foreign speaker

.

KuKulzA28 · 6th December 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think the ones that were posted in the forum were fine .

We don't do gore .

I don't think there is anything wrong with showing gory pictures as long as the discussing is not about the gore. But there should be a good reason for them or, why are they there?

But having said that, how often do we need gory pictures in our discussion anyways? This forum is a lot more dedicated towards the cultural and historical aspects of weapons than the use of and results of using such weapons. There's plenty of machete-wound pictures on Google images if anyone wants to see what happens to a survivor of a machete-fight. Since this forum doesn't discuss fighting with weaponry much, I doubt gory pictures will be a problem. Plus, most of you all here seem pretty gentlemanly and considerate.

And plus, if there is a discussion on the cutting power of say, tulwars, the use of our imagination and historical accounts would be more humane than cutting an animal or human with a tulwar and taking pictures - even if its more conclusive.

19th June 2009, 08:11 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	what were the working blades of India? Interestingly, I've been finding it very hard to find the working blades of nations... most resources speak volumes on swords and spears and such, but unless you're talking about a culture where the tool and weapon were one (such as an ax, machete, golok, or parang) they are silent when it comes to the more mundane cutlery that was the commoners weapon, tool, and prized possession. All I know is that some Indian weapons had application outside of war... such as the Molpah and Ayda Katti, or katars when tiger-hunting, etc. I know India is a large place and has many different peoples and societies, ranging from the metropolitan where most common-folk did not own weapons, to the more tribal, where every man was expected to be or have been a warrior. Does anyone have examples or sources of tradition Indian work blades?

20th June 2009, 04:23 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	It’s an interesting question you ask, and the answer is yes. There are other weapons than the ones you mention. Straight or tulwar blades swords, often with hunting scenes chiselled on the blades, kukris were also used in India, although they were not so common as many other weapon types and the pichangatti from Coorg – attached. There are, no doubt, others especially if you look for the tribal weapons, but it would be interesting to see what other can come up with. Attached Images

21st June 2009, 05:50 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Nepali working blade . Dinner, coming up . Attached Images

22nd June 2009, 04:16 PM	#11
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Very cool! I noticed this guy on [edited O.A. link] looks like a nicer version of the blade type that ausjulius linked to! [note, try the sold section of the site for examples] Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2009 at 04:29 PM. Reason: item currently for sale

4th December 2009, 06:59 PM	#21
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	This piece discussed some time ago as a javanese machete has the same hilt attachment as the machete of Fernando. Looks like an aruval. Is it after all an Indian or nepalese piece? Attached Images

20th June 2009, 05:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required. As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger. The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse. As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended. Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only. These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon., All best regards, Jim

20th June 2009, 05:31 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

21st June 2009, 05:16 PM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality.. it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent.. also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts.. another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end.. i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools.. unlike south east asian tools..

21st June 2009, 05:55 PM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	http://www.flickr.com/photos/jailusser/2448057675/ here you can some of double and single edged hooked knives.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/meanestindian/90515979/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnibel/867502568/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/harshadsharma/331057387/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mkuram/3588383329/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/114697722/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/yameza/1334875092/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/824301545/ looks homemade from an old saw that one... but it is the correct shape of a normal indian working knife... a non indian tool found in parts of india populated by tribal folks.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindadevolder/3437218977/ more simple knives http://www.flickr.com/photos/lennymika/2573192846/

22nd June 2009, 12:18 AM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the very informative replies! That's very interesting... the forward-curved, sickle-like billhook blades are very similar to the working blades in Taiwan... they did not use the stereotypical straight machete for work, it was the curved "fat sickle" type of the blade... in Taiwan there too was a good distinction between war and work blades (to some degree). Although the Aborigines (Yuan Zhu Min) often used their headhunting blades for survival and fighting... when Chinese peasants revolted against the Dutch, they use the biggest blade they had... the curved rice-knife or the billhook style blade. Street brawls and fights often involved spears, cleavers, dao, axes, etc.

22nd June 2009, 09:25 AM	#10
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	In Nepal the the slashers/sickles are used much more now, as the carry of kukri is now pretty much prohibited, unless up in the hills, or in the jungle for protection which Dave and I did; And obviously security Guards Generaly the kukri is one of those blades which is dual purpose, both a general user, but also a weapon, although there are obvious exceptions to this rule.

3rd December 2009, 04:57 AM	#12
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Here's a pic of an aruval... Anyone have examples of one in their collections? Not that I know much, but they seem to be popular in voilent Tamil movies.

3rd December 2009, 09:49 AM	#13
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	When I visited Nepal 5 years ago kukri, kora, sickles, bill hooks, rudimentry all metal knives etc.etc. were all widley used in Nepal. Heres a group of devotees Last week at Bariyapur Nepal on their way to behead 10,000 buffalo & 240,000 chicken, pigeons, goats, pigs etc.to appease the goddess Gadhimai The slaughter at the festival & many weapons/tools used can be seen at IKRHS in both photos & videao. { This is not for the squemish it looks like an open air abatour.But as I eat lots of meat what can i say.} Spiral linky.

3rd December 2009, 09:46 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Gene, for your comments & understanding, Yes indeed the pictures are not always good to see, even on the ikrhs link I advoided sharing those of obviously injured & distresed animals. I feel sorry for the animals but its not my country or culture & I know I eat meat evry day so who am I to sit in public judgement. Fascinating story of your surgeon friend, most officers come away with a kothimara & either a service issue, private purchase or villigers kukri, the men he looked after must have respected him deeply if they gave him a true sacraficial piece . In respect of your sensebilities, heres a couple more just showing the devotees & tools/weapons. Spiral

3rd December 2009, 10:57 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, animal sacrifice aside, another "working" example would be Nagas Dao.

4th December 2009, 02:55 PM	#18
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Heres a few other working blade examples In Dharan & Kirtipur back in 2005... Although some butchers {particularily in Dharan} use kukris, in many areas they use these more strangely cuved cleaver type tools { Photo from kathmandu by a freind there & sent to me a couple of years ago.} spiral

5th December 2009, 05:04 PM	#22
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Henk, The wooden handle looks alike, but the socket of mine is very particular, in that it is an extension of the blade; no steps, all a smooth continuity. Fernando

6th December 2009, 09:04 AM	#24
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Fernando, My socket is not an extension of the blade but attached to the blade and finished as was it an extension of the blade. But the weldings are vissible. It is more the similarity with the handle. The blade looks more like an aruval. I'm still wondering if mine is an Indian or Nepalese piece after all?

6th December 2009, 04:03 PM	#25
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 678	Presumably the pair of rice sickles from Nepal: Attached Images

6th December 2009, 07:44 PM	#26
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Great thread! Nice to see all these pics of 'working blades' doing work! Serves as a good reminder- the forum is about WEAPONS not butterfly nets. Some of those pics from that festival are really powerful- the silhouetted image of a Kora in profile see through dense mist/smoke, pretty eerie.

6th December 2009, 09:15 PM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Pictures I think the ones that were posted in the forum were fine . We don't do gore .