Another Sudanese knife !

Warren McQ · 22nd May 2009, 02:58 AM

Hi all, Well the dagger I pictured in an earlier post hasn't arrived in my hands yet but this one just landed today. I'm very happy with it as it seems to have all the features that that indicate "old" I think.
Please take a look and let me know what you all think.
Thanks Again,
Warren in Arizona

colin henshaw · 22nd May 2009, 10:27 AM

Interesting knife - never seen that type with a curved blade before.

Congrats.

Lew · 22nd May 2009, 10:45 AM

Warren

Very nice but who do you think was the other bidder

I am glad you got it.

Congrats

Lew

Dom · 22nd May 2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren McQ

Hi all, Well the dagger I pictured in an earlier post hasn't arrived in my hands yet but this one just landed today. I'm very happy with it as it seems to have all the features that that indicate "old" I think.
Please take a look and let me know what you all think.
Thanks Again,
Warren in Arizona

Hi Warren
no appreciation from me about the date,
just an idea about the blade mention

- name of the second major city in Sudan; Om Dorman
- name of country origin; Sudan

à +

Dom

Warren McQ · 22nd May 2009, 04:57 PM

Thanks Dom for the translation, I'm good on Arabic numbers but the only Arabic script I can read are traffic signs

Lew, I figured the other bidder knew what the knife was but I had an attack of the virus and was unable to resist. The fact I was bidding against you confirms the quality of the knife.
I'll take pics of the other two knives and put them up for identification.
Can you all give me an idea of age of the knife and the meaning of the engravings on the blade.
Thanks Much,
Warren in Arizona

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2009, 09:35 PM

Outstanding Warren! Nice piece, and my hat is off to you for your interest in learning more on the markings!! Most encouraging, and hopefully there may be comments offering explanations on them.

Lew · 22nd May 2009, 10:45 PM

Warren

As for the age I would think 1925-40 but could be as early as 1900. The swimming fish (also a river/water symbol) on one side a the wavey line (river symbol) on the other side seems symbolic of the meeting of the Blue nile and White Nile at Khartoum and Omdurman. That is my theory.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2009, 03:50 AM

Dom, thank you again for your expertise in the translation on this!! It really helps a lot to know the wording on these, while the symbols offer great field for speculation.

The symbol of the fish is one which does seem to appear on blades of daggers and knives in Sudanese regions well into the 20th century. As with considerable symbolism in the material culture of North Africa, one of the predominant themes are apotropaic and talismanic devices. In 16th c. Tunis, the fish was considered useful in combat against evil spirits. The fish as a talisman is noted prevalent in North Africa, especially in the south ("African Shores of the Meditteranean" C. Grant, L.Grant, 1912, p.477).

The wavy line adjacent to the fish seems to be reflective of symbolism and linear motif used in the pottery and ceramics of Neolithic period in these regions. The 'dotted wavy line' motif is well known in archaeological parlance and its presence here first recognized by A.J.Arkell (" Early Khartoum", London, 1949), as he referenced Mesolithic period in Sudan, with this motif carrying into the Neolithic period.
It is known that the use of these prehistoric motifs often prevail in modern symbolism in these North African cultures.

Often the geometric devices, such as the triangles may be considered embellishment, however it must be remembered that the 'fibula', the triangular device of Berber folk religion is found in motif on the flyssa blade, also an apotropaic against the evil eye.

A great reference for observing the use of symbolism in material culture, in this case jewellery, in North Africa, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher.
Outstanding perspective.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 21st June 2009, 01:49 AM

I do wonder about the fish being present on the blade, with the references Jim has noted, it does have recording meaning within Africa.
Although poles apart, I do wonder, after digesting some of Elgood's Hindu arms and Ritual, page 135, that the fish may also have a fertility meaning in Africa too? Only a suggestion as Hindu's also note the fish as being evil alerting, similar to Africa too.

Gav

Royston · 22nd June 2009, 02:47 PM

I think this one is Sudanese.

Is the blade shape rare ?

Does anyone know what the coin is ?
The date appears to be 1293

Overall length is 15 inches
Blade length 10 1/4 inches

Regards
Royston

Lew · 22nd June 2009, 03:40 PM

That is a Hadendoan dagger with a rarer than usual blade shape 1293 AH is 1876? Nice find

If you you check some of my threads you will see a similar style blade to match yours.

Lew

Lew · 23rd June 2009, 09:08 PM

Here you go

22nd May 2009, 02:58 AM	#1
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	Another Sudanese knife ! Hi all, Well the dagger I pictured in an earlier post hasn't arrived in my hands yet but this one just landed today. I'm very happy with it as it seems to have all the features that that indicate "old" I think. Please take a look and let me know what you all think. Thanks Again, Warren in Arizona Attached Images

21st June 2009, 01:49 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The Fish I do wonder about the fish being present on the blade, with the references Jim has noted, it does have recording meaning within Africa. Although poles apart, I do wonder, after digesting some of Elgood's Hindu arms and Ritual, page 135, that the fish may also have a fertility meaning in Africa too? Only a suggestion as Hindu's also note the fish as being evil alerting, similar to Africa too. Gav

22nd June 2009, 02:47 PM	#10
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Sudan knife with unusual blade I think this one is Sudanese. Is the blade shape rare ? Does anyone know what the coin is ? The date appears to be 1293 Overall length is 15 inches Blade length 10 1/4 inches Regards Royston Attached Images

23rd June 2009, 09:08 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here you go Attached Images

22nd May 2009, 10:27 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Interesting knife - never seen that type with a curved blade before. Congrats.

22nd May 2009, 10:45 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Warren Very nice but who do you think was the other bidder I am glad you got it. Congrats Lew

22nd May 2009, 04:57 PM	#5
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	Thanks Dom for the translation, I'm good on Arabic numbers but the only Arabic script I can read are traffic signs Lew, I figured the other bidder knew what the knife was but I had an attack of the virus and was unable to resist. The fact I was bidding against you confirms the quality of the knife. I'll take pics of the other two knives and put them up for identification. Can you all give me an idea of age of the knife and the meaning of the engravings on the blade. Thanks Much, Warren in Arizona

22nd May 2009, 09:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,741	Outstanding Warren! Nice piece, and my hat is off to you for your interest in learning more on the markings!! Most encouraging, and hopefully there may be comments offering explanations on them.

22nd May 2009, 10:45 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Warren As for the age I would think 1925-40 but could be as early as 1900. The swimming fish (also a river/water symbol) on one side a the wavey line (river symbol) on the other side seems symbolic of the meeting of the Blue nile and White Nile at Khartoum and Omdurman. That is my theory. Lew

25th May 2009, 03:50 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,741	Dom, thank you again for your expertise in the translation on this!! It really helps a lot to know the wording on these, while the symbols offer great field for speculation. The symbol of the fish is one which does seem to appear on blades of daggers and knives in Sudanese regions well into the 20th century. As with considerable symbolism in the material culture of North Africa, one of the predominant themes are apotropaic and talismanic devices. In 16th c. Tunis, the fish was considered useful in combat against evil spirits. The fish as a talisman is noted prevalent in North Africa, especially in the south ("African Shores of the Meditteranean" C. Grant, L.Grant, 1912, p.477). The wavy line adjacent to the fish seems to be reflective of symbolism and linear motif used in the pottery and ceramics of Neolithic period in these regions. The 'dotted wavy line' motif is well known in archaeological parlance and its presence here first recognized by A.J.Arkell (" Early Khartoum", London, 1949), as he referenced Mesolithic period in Sudan, with this motif carrying into the Neolithic period. It is known that the use of these prehistoric motifs often prevail in modern symbolism in these North African cultures. Often the geometric devices, such as the triangles may be considered embellishment, however it must be remembered that the 'fibula', the triangular device of Berber folk religion is found in motif on the flyssa blade, also an apotropaic against the evil eye. A great reference for observing the use of symbolism in material culture, in this case jewellery, in North Africa, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. Outstanding perspective. All best regards, Jim

22nd June 2009, 03:40 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	That is a Hadendoan dagger with a rarer than usual blade shape 1293 AH is 1876? Nice find If you you check some of my threads you will see a similar style blade to match yours. Lew