Comments on the W & G. Chance of London flintlock pistol.

Dmitry · 27th October 2009, 05:12 PM

The most interesting thing about this pistol for me are the pewter mounts, which I have never seen before. Caliber is ~16 mm. Barrel is 27 cm long, Liege-proofed, marked LONDON, and profusely-marked on the bottom and sides.
I show W. Chance and Son/Sons ca.1820s.
The overall style of the decorations is to me suggestive of the Eastern, perhaps Persian vernacular.
What are your opinions on this piece, and the barrel markings?
Thank you.

kahnjar1 · 31st October 2009, 07:33 AM

IMHO this pistol does not look English made to me. The quality of the engraving on the metal is not of the quality one would expect to see on an item of English manufacture, even the cheaper ones. Also the Belgian proof at least indicates that it was proved in Liege. Most English pistols were stocked in walnut, and this does not look like walnut.
IF it was imported into England then it SHOULD also bear British proof marks. Are there other marks you have not shown in the pics?---maybe under the barrel.
I suspect that Chance is a retailer, rather than a maker.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 31st October 2009, 02:34 PM

I must comment on the shape of the numbers, they look way too modern...

My two cents.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO this pistol does not look English made to me. The quality of the engraving on the metal is not of the quality one would expect to see on an item of English manufacture, even the cheaper ones. Also the Belgian proof at least indicates that it was proved in Liege. Most English pistols were stocked in walnut, and this does not look like walnut.
IF it was imported into England then it SHOULD also bear British proof marks. Are there other marks you have not shown in the pics?---maybe under the barrel.
I suspect that Chance is a retailer, rather than a maker.
Regards Stuart

Dmitry · 31st October 2009, 07:41 PM

There are plenty of English-made pistols with more primitive decorations than are shown on this piece.
The proof of Liege, along with the absence of any British proof marks may indicate that the pistol was made for the Eastern trade. My main interest here is the mounts, cast either of lead, pewter, or a similar metal/alloy.
As I wrote , I have never seen furniture like that.
The floral decorations, including the roses, along with the crescent may point towards the Orient, I reckon. It is possible that the pistol was stocked in Turkey or Persia, from the European parts... The barrel and the lock are decorated en suite.

Atlantia · 31st October 2009, 08:12 PM

I have to say, its a nice looking pistol, but it is an unusual choice of material for the mounts!
The trigger guard especially. Pewter is so soft, scratches so easily and bends... well!
Looking at the trigger guard and the thin metal aorund the screws, whatever this guns origins, its certainly a lucky survivor to still have a full set of these pewter mounts.

Although... that aside! It can be polished to look like silver but is a lot cheaper, and it would look much more 'classy' than the more familiar bronze/brass mounts.
So, I'd conclude that it had these mounts as a cheaper alternative to silver.

OOh, just a thought, and you'd be brave to remove one.... They might have some kind of 'hallmark' I think, if they are English pewter.
Didn't pewter made here often have 'pseudo' hallmarks?

celtan · 1st November 2009, 01:40 AM

Guys,
What about my comments on the shape of the 9 and the 4? Are these usual for a putative 18th C dating?
I undertand that flintlocks were used in some places up to the late 19th C, due to easier availabaility of blackpowder and flints, compared to industrial ammo.
Could this be an export piece belonging to these places and later dates, or perhaps even made from earlier parts and retooled with new numbers?

Dmitry · 1st November 2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Guys,
What about my comments on the shape of the 9 and the 4? Are these usual for a putative 18th C dating?

This pistol dates post.1810. I would be quite comfortable in the mid-1800s. Liege proof mark came to be in 1810. The crowned N is the Belgian inspection mark from the mid-1850s. The characteristics of the lock are also 19th century. I'm still thinking the Persian market. The rose on the trigger guard might be pointing towards Isfahan.

Dmitry · 1st November 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I have to say, its a nice looking pistol, but it is an unusual choice of material for the mounts!
The trigger guard especially. Pewter is so soft, scratches so easily and bends... well!
Looking at the trigger guard and the thin metal aorund the screws, whatever this guns origins, its certainly a lucky survivor to still have a full set of these pewter mounts.

Although... that aside! It can be polished to look like silver but is a lot cheaper, and it would look much more 'classy' than the more familiar bronze/brass mounts.
So, I'd conclude that it had these mounts as a cheaper alternative to silver.

OOh, just a thought, and you'd be brave to remove one.... They might have some kind of 'hallmark' I think, if they are English pewter.
Didn't pewter made here often have 'pseudo' hallmarks?

I don't know whether it is pewter, or a pewter-like alloy, but it certainly isn't beat up, perhaps because it is of fair thickness.
I definitely agree on the less expensive choice of mounting. When polished bright pewter resembles silver, which would be even softer, by the way.

Atlantia · 1st November 2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I don't know whether it is pewter, or a pewter-like alloy, but it certainly isn't beat up, perhaps because it is of fair thickness.
I definitely agree on the less expensive choice of mounting. When polished bright pewter resembles silver, which would be even softer, by the way.

It certainly looks like pewter in the pics, and the colour is right. As for the visible wear, it does look like its got the characteristic plethora of tiny marks that pewter often acquires over time.
In general the whole gun looks like its been pretty well cared for. Its a rather nice piece!
Are you tempted to take one off and see if there are makers/hall-marks on the back?

27th October 2009, 05:12 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Comments on the W & G. Chance of London flintlock pistol. The most interesting thing about this pistol for me are the pewter mounts, which I have never seen before. Caliber is ~16 mm. Barrel is 27 cm long, Liege-proofed, marked LONDON, and profusely-marked on the bottom and sides. I show W. Chance and Son/Sons ca.1820s. The overall style of the decorations is to me suggestive of the Eastern, perhaps Persian vernacular. What are your opinions on this piece, and the barrel markings? Thank you.

31st October 2009, 08:12 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I have to say, its a nice looking pistol, but it is an unusual choice of material for the mounts! The trigger guard especially. Pewter is so soft, scratches so easily and bends... well! Looking at the trigger guard and the thin metal aorund the screws, whatever this guns origins, its certainly a lucky survivor to still have a full set of these pewter mounts. Although... that aside! It can be polished to look like silver but is a lot cheaper, and it would look much more 'classy' than the more familiar bronze/brass mounts. So, I'd conclude that it had these mounts as a cheaper alternative to silver. OOh, just a thought, and you'd be brave to remove one.... They might have some kind of 'hallmark' I think, if they are English pewter. Didn't pewter made here often have 'pseudo' hallmarks? Last edited by Atlantia; 31st October 2009 at 09:39 PM.

31st October 2009, 07:33 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	IMHO this pistol does not look English made to me. The quality of the engraving on the metal is not of the quality one would expect to see on an item of English manufacture, even the cheaper ones. Also the Belgian proof at least indicates that it was proved in Liege. Most English pistols were stocked in walnut, and this does not look like walnut. IF it was imported into England then it SHOULD also bear British proof marks. Are there other marks you have not shown in the pics?---maybe under the barrel. I suspect that Chance is a retailer, rather than a maker. Regards Stuart

31st October 2009, 07:41 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	There are plenty of English-made pistols with more primitive decorations than are shown on this piece. The proof of Liege, along with the absence of any British proof marks may indicate that the pistol was made for the Eastern trade. My main interest here is the mounts, cast either of lead, pewter, or a similar metal/alloy. As I wrote , I have never seen furniture like that. The floral decorations, including the roses, along with the crescent may point towards the Orient, I reckon. It is possible that the pistol was stocked in Turkey or Persia, from the European parts... The barrel and the lock are decorated en suite.

1st November 2009, 01:40 AM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Guys, What about my comments on the shape of the 9 and the 4? Are these usual for a putative 18th C dating? I undertand that flintlocks were used in some places up to the late 19th C, due to easier availabaility of blackpowder and flints, compared to industrial ammo. Could this be an export piece belonging to these places and later dates, or perhaps even made from earlier parts and retooled with new numbers?