La Espada

citlali · 5th January 2007, 01:56 PM

I need help in trying to identify a sword I recently purchased. It looks old and is quite heavy. I have tried several times to attach the photos to this thread but have failed. It looks like a Roman short sword and is in a black leather sheath. The handle is a dark metal color and it looks like it has a rounded tile roof all around. At the butt of handle on either side is a stamped eagle with 3 arrows in it's claws. The blade is a silver color with a smaller eagle/bird stamped near the handle and on the other side the no. 1841 and below that WS. I'm very curious to find out a little bit more about it with some help. Maybe I can e-mail the pictures to someone who can then post them? I'm sorry for my lack of experience at the comp.

In hopes that someone is as curious as I,

Citlali.

Emanuel · 5th January 2007, 06:15 PM

Hello Citlali, welcome to the forum.

I'll take a stab at that 1841 WS...how about Wilkinson Swords? That would make it British production. The shape also sounds like a French artillery sword I once saw. You can post some pictures on this forum - look at "Manage Attachment" on the bottom of the posting page. If you download this software: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe
you can resize the pictures to fit here, by right-clicking on them.
I found a mention to "eagle and arrows" as an american medal: http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/jsp/item/I...adeId=2033105#
so perhaps you have an American artillery sword of the 1840s.

Regards,
Emanuel

katana · 5th January 2007, 07:39 PM

Hi citlali, welcome to the Forum...

I think that these links will have the answers your looking for

http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1832fart.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1...rtillery_Sword

http://armscollectors.com/mgs/2_ames...ords_pt__1.htm

Regards David

Oh....I am assuming that it looks something like this.......

citlali · 6th January 2007, 03:00 AM

Thank you so much for helping me find out the origins of this 1832 Artillary Sword. I admire that even without the pictures Katana (David) was able to indentify it. Awesome and congradulations on your expertise.

Sincerely,

Citlali.

citlali · 6th January 2007, 03:05 AM

Can anyone tell me where I can find out it's value?

Citlali

katana · 6th January 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citlali

.... congradulations on your expertise.

Citlali.

Thanks for the compliment......but unfortunately I am no 'expert'

I recently was researching an African 'Gladius' styled sword and was looking at the possible link to the French short sword, the 'cabbage cutter' of which your sword is the American version.

As to value....I personnally have no idea. If you can build up the personal history of the sword by trying to find out who previously owned it, what the markings mean (ie WS could be the owners initials, regiment, makers mark, armoury marks or registration ) all can help to improve the value. We cannot talk £ or $ on threads, hopefully someone may PM with a value. Or google search for sword dealers...especially those dealing with Civil war weapons.....it will certainly give you an idea (although most dealer prices are 'top end')

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2007, 12:49 PM

Hello Citlali,
While all indications are that your sword is the U.S. Model 1832 Foot Artillery sword, it is interesting that the blade does not carry the Ames Sword Co. markings (Chicopee, Mass.), the firm that carried the contract to make these swords for the U.S. government. Ames obtained the original contract in 1832 and actually produced about 20,000 of them by 1862 when production ceased.
It is known however, that like many large firms, Ames did subcontract work, particularly in the early production years, prior to thier move to Chicopee Falls, Mass. in 1834.
The eagle on your blade is characteristic of Ames M1832 blades, and the WS represents one of thier inspectors, William Smith, whose initials also appear on many of the Ames M1833 cavalry sabres (known dates c.1837).
The 1841 on your sword suggests a date, however it seems quite possible as well that with the possibility of the subcontracting, this could plausibly be a numeric for inventory purposes. Equally a date may be possible showing this sword made in that year with Mr.Smith's inspection for accounting purposes.
In either case, the early production of this sword remains plausible.

As I indicated in our discussion, these swords indeed recall the Roman gladius and were actually designed after the neoclassic French M1816 swords of this type which they 'affectionately' called 'coupe choux' (=cabbage cutter)

While typically considered unwieldy in combat, the M1832 Foot Artillery swords apparantly served well as 'choppers' in the Florida swamps during the 2nd Seminole War.

It is interesting that the similarity of these swords to the ancient Roman gladius has had occasion to cause quite a stir in the archaeological sphere, when in one case years ago one was dug up in the New York area if I recall. The attending archaeologists naively assumed they had discovered evidence of early Romans in New York !!

and were quite chagrined when a researcher 'cooled thier jets'!!

Although we dont do valuations on the forum, I will note that early U.S. items are typically very collectible, and of course this brings forward the possibility of 'reproductions'. "Man at Arms" magazine is an outstanding resource on U.S. weapons, and they would be a great contact for this type information.

All the best,
Jim

citlali · 10th January 2007, 04:52 AM

Again thank you all for being so generous with your time and knowledge. I appreciate your help. I gave the sword to my husband for his b-day, who has a small collection of knives and swords from his travels. He is very happy with his new gladious style sword. Take care to all, and until next time...

Citlali.

5th January 2007, 01:56 PM	#1
citlali Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4	La Espada I need help in trying to identify a sword I recently purchased. It looks old and is quite heavy. I have tried several times to attach the photos to this thread but have failed. It looks like a Roman short sword and is in a black leather sheath. The handle is a dark metal color and it looks like it has a rounded tile roof all around. At the butt of handle on either side is a stamped eagle with 3 arrows in it's claws. The blade is a silver color with a smaller eagle/bird stamped near the handle and on the other side the no. 1841 and below that WS. I'm very curious to find out a little bit more about it with some help. Maybe I can e-mail the pictures to someone who can then post them? I'm sorry for my lack of experience at the comp. In hopes that someone is as curious as I, Citlali.

5th January 2007, 06:15 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Citlali, welcome to the forum. I'll take a stab at that 1841 WS...how about Wilkinson Swords? That would make it British production. The shape also sounds like a French artillery sword I once saw. You can post some pictures on this forum - look at "Manage Attachment" on the bottom of the posting page. If you download this software: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe you can resize the pictures to fit here, by right-clicking on them. I found a mention to "eagle and arrows" as an american medal: http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/jsp/item/I...adeId=2033105# so perhaps you have an American artillery sword of the 1840s. Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 5th January 2007 at 06:32 PM.

5th January 2007, 07:39 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi citlali, welcome to the Forum... I think that these links will have the answers your looking for http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1832fart.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1...rtillery_Sword http://armscollectors.com/mgs/2_ames...ords_pt__1.htm Regards David Oh....I am assuming that it looks something like this....... Attached Images Last edited by katana; 5th January 2007 at 08:15 PM.

6th January 2007, 03:00 AM	#4
citlali Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4	La Espada Thank you so much for helping me find out the origins of this 1832 Artillary Sword. I admire that even without the pictures Katana (David) was able to indentify it. Awesome and congradulations on your expertise. Sincerely, Citlali.

6th January 2007, 03:05 AM	#5
citlali Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4	La Espada Can anyone tell me where I can find out it's value? Citlali

7th January 2007, 12:49 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hello Citlali, While all indications are that your sword is the U.S. Model 1832 Foot Artillery sword, it is interesting that the blade does not carry the Ames Sword Co. markings (Chicopee, Mass.), the firm that carried the contract to make these swords for the U.S. government. Ames obtained the original contract in 1832 and actually produced about 20,000 of them by 1862 when production ceased. It is known however, that like many large firms, Ames did subcontract work, particularly in the early production years, prior to thier move to Chicopee Falls, Mass. in 1834. The eagle on your blade is characteristic of Ames M1832 blades, and the WS represents one of thier inspectors, William Smith, whose initials also appear on many of the Ames M1833 cavalry sabres (known dates c.1837). The 1841 on your sword suggests a date, however it seems quite possible as well that with the possibility of the subcontracting, this could plausibly be a numeric for inventory purposes. Equally a date may be possible showing this sword made in that year with Mr.Smith's inspection for accounting purposes. In either case, the early production of this sword remains plausible. As I indicated in our discussion, these swords indeed recall the Roman gladius and were actually designed after the neoclassic French M1816 swords of this type which they 'affectionately' called 'coupe choux' (=cabbage cutter) While typically considered unwieldy in combat, the M1832 Foot Artillery swords apparantly served well as 'choppers' in the Florida swamps during the 2nd Seminole War. It is interesting that the similarity of these swords to the ancient Roman gladius has had occasion to cause quite a stir in the archaeological sphere, when in one case years ago one was dug up in the New York area if I recall. The attending archaeologists naively assumed they had discovered evidence of early Romans in New York !! and were quite chagrined when a researcher 'cooled thier jets'!! Although we dont do valuations on the forum, I will note that early U.S. items are typically very collectible, and of course this brings forward the possibility of 'reproductions'. "Man at Arms" magazine is an outstanding resource on U.S. weapons, and they would be a great contact for this type information. All the best, Jim

10th January 2007, 04:52 AM	#8
citlali Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4	Again thank you all for being so generous with your time and knowledge. I appreciate your help. I gave the sword to my husband for his b-day, who has a small collection of knives and swords from his travels. He is very happy with his new gladious style sword. Take care to all, and until next time... Citlali.