Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th February 2019, 04:44 PM   #1
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 254
Default Balinese/Lombok Keris for comments

Hello,

Here is my only Keris with a painted scabbard.
The old blade presents a very original pamor, even if it has largely disappeared.
The scabbard is made of a light painted wood except on the back of the Gandar.
I have the impression that it should originally be covered with a pendok.
Attached Images
  
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 05:28 PM   #2
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Default

Nice old kris, congratulations!
The blade is very short as compared to the scabbard and has a worn leaf pamor (Blarak Ngirid or similar?). I am curious to know the opinions from the members about its origin (Bali/ Lombok or Java?)
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 05:39 PM   #3
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

An interesting keris Athanase. Can you tell us how long the blade is as it looks shorter than the norm for Bali blades? I also have a similar keris in that it is Bali/Lombok with old sunggingan (painted sheath) and the blade is particularly short for a Bali keris though the sarong is normal size just like this one seems to be. I agree that this, just like my own, once had a form of pendok, the Balinese type that covers just the back and sides and leaves the front open to expose the wood.
Mine also has a Tapukan style hilt like yours with a hair wrapping and has red paint on the wood as well to match the painted sheath.
My feeling is that these shorter keris are in normal large size Bali sheaths to accommodate the normal method of wearing the keris. I'm not sure about the significance of the shorter blades. They do not seem like patrems, but there must be some significance to the shorter lengths i would imagine. It does seem the the larger lengths on Bali keris is more of a later development though, so maybe these are older blades being fitted for the normal customs of wear over time.
I am afraid that i do not have too may photos of mine currently, but here are a couple of shots i have for comparison.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by David : 25th February 2019 at 02:37 PM. Reason: corrected spelling for search purpose
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 05:41 PM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
I am curious to know the opinions from the members about its origin (Bali/ Lombok or Java?)

Jean, i am inclined towards Bali/Lombok and probably Lombok specifically.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 07:33 PM   #5
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 803
Default

A keris with a soul and the dress too ...nice @@
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 08:48 PM   #6
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 254
Default

The blade length is 30cm, sorry for forgetting.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 02:17 AM   #7
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanase
The blade length is 30cm, sorry for forgetting.

Yes, mine is a similar length. Definitely short for what we have come to expect from Bali blades.
Here is another similar dress combo of sunggingan sheath and Tapukan hilt, though the blade seems a more standard size.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by David : 25th February 2019 at 02:38 PM.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 07:58 AM   #8
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Default

Few observations & questions but not conclusions about Athanase's kris:
. The sunggingan sampir appears quite recently painted?
. Yes, the blade has some Bali/ Lombok features such as the twin lambe gajah, groove on the front of the ganja, ganja wulung, etc. but what about the pamor pattern and blade surface?
. Any reason for such a short blade size? (it does not seem to have been significantly shortened). How does it fit into the scabbard slot?
. Since at least the 1990's, the krisses from Bali/ Lombok fetch much higher prices than the Javanese ones for the tourists so it is common to fit Javanese blades into Balinese scabbards for increasing their market value.
. Are the Sasak from Lombok wearing the kris high in the back like the Balinese?
Regards

Last edited by Jean : 25th February 2019 at 08:10 AM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 08:02 AM   #9
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David

Here is another similar dress combo of suggingan sheath and Tapukan hilt, though the blade seems a more standard size.


Mismatched blade and scabbard?
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 01:19 PM   #10
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Mismatched blade and scabbard?

I have no idea judging solely by these photos. Why do you suspect so?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 01:42 PM   #11
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Few observations & questions but not conclusions about Athanase's kris:
. The sunggingan sampir appears quite recently painted?
. Yes, the blade has some Bali/ Lombok features such as the twin lambe gajah, groove on the front of the ganja, ganja wulung, etc. but what about the pamor pattern and blade surface?
. Any reason for such a short blade size? (it does not seem to have been significantly shortened). How does it fit into the scabbard slot?
. Since at least the 1990's, the krisses from Bali/ Lombok fetch much higher prices than the Javanese ones for the tourists so it is common to fit Javanese blades into Balinese scabbards for increasing their market value.
. Are the Sasak from Lombok wearing the kris high in the back like the Balinese?
Regards

Good questions Jean.
Yes, the blade certainly has Bali/Lombok indicators. As i said earlier, i would more suspect Lombok. The keris is old, but from what i can see in the photos it still looks like a it once had a polished Bali surface. And the way the gonjo is cut and the quality/look of the iron reminds me very much of an old (and short) Lombok keris i once owned.
True, we cannot see the fit. But if you are trying to figure out what such a short blade is doing in a normal sized Bali scabbard i can refer you to my own example as a precedent. True, i have not shown many photos, but you can clearly see the fit that my short blade has in its long sarong so obviously it has been done for whatever reason. It was just a guess on my part that might have something to due with how the keris is worn as a part of over all dress, but i am certainly open to other ideas.
I am not at all sure why you believe the sampir has been recently painted. It shows very clear signs of what looks like natural wear over a long period of time.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 02:19 PM   #12
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Mismatched blade and scabbard?


The sampir is designed for a ganja kelap lintah...
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 02:44 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
The sampir is designed for a ganja kelap lintah...

Well, you might be correct there. Not something i really noticed from these photos. However, my purpose in posting was to show similar dress to both Athanase and mine. Whether or not the blade was re-fitted to this dress was not really important.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 05:26 PM   #14
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Whether or not the blade was re-fitted to this dress was not really important.


I understand David but for me it is important to try to know whether these short blades fitted on Balinese / Lombok krisses are original or not (dealer's montage). They may be older blades as you have suggested, however from memory they do not appear in the large collection of Lombok krisses shown in the Lalu Djelenga books for instance.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2019, 10:07 PM   #15
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 254
Default

The fitting of my keris in the wrangka is near perfect.
The wood of scabbard is light and less quality than my non-painted balineses Keris.

Last edited by Athanase : 26th February 2019 at 01:23 PM.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2019, 12:44 AM   #16
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
I understand David but for me it is important to try to know whether these short blades fitted on Balinese / Lombok krisses are original or not (dealer's montage). They may be older blades as you have suggested, however from memory they do not appear in the large collection of Lombok krisses shown in the Lalu Djelenga books for instance.

Understood Jean. So apparently we have mine, which i am pretty certain is a sheath made specially with this old, relatively short Bali/Lombok blade, and now Athanase is confirming that his sheath also seems cut to fit.
Athanase, can you take a photo of the top of the sheath so we can see the fit?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2019, 09:37 AM   #17
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 254
Default

The pictures.
Attached Images
 
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2019, 09:19 PM   #18
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Thanks Athanase. Given the small size of this keris and the lack of visible fillers it would seem that like my example your sheath was made specifically for this blade.
I received the following information from an outside source to add to this discussion. I don't quite buy all of it for reasons i will give in a moment, but feel it is still interesting information to add.
"The short blades are common in Bali where the people wear short krisses in everyday's life. The large kris was worn with the ceremonial attire and reserved for official ceremonies and rituals. In Tanganan it is still possible to see men wearing a small kris inserted into the belt. And these short blades were sometimes fitted in large scabbards such as for this specimen."
So one question we have to address is the question of these shorter than average Bali keris. We know they exist are are not merely Javanese keris fitted with Bali dress. I would question the above assertion that these shorter blades are "common" If that were the case surely we would see more of them and we don't. Though i suppose that it os possible that the shorter variety was popular in some areas of Bali. I have heard it suggested that the larger variety of Bali keris are more recent (last 200 years) and earlier examples might well be a bot shorter. The Bali keris is a direct descendent from Jawa after all. I would think that when the keris first migrated to Bali that they were very much the same dimensions as the the Javanese keris was at the time. I am also not convinced that the longer Bali keris were meant only for ceremony and that the Balinese had a smaller keris for their everyday needs. Again, if this were true we would see many more of these small Bali keris about, no?
This does still leave us with the question of why dress these smaller keris in larger clothing. It still seems somewhat logical that this has something to do this the keris fitting into the traditional ways of wearing the keris, but i am certainly open to hearing other theories on this as it has puzzled me a bit for some time.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:10 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.