Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd June 2019, 08:48 PM   #1
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 261
Default Old Cirebon Keris for comment.

Hello,

When I bought this old Keris there was only the blade and the handle with a remnant of Gandar with pendok from Madura. But when I look the blade and the handle I suppose that it comes rather from the region of Cirebon.
The handle is made of wood but it has the particularity of having the base covered with a ring made of buffalo horn.
The blade is very worn out and has just been quickly cleaned with WD40.

To dress up this Keris I added an old bronze medak I had in stock and for the warangka I just temporarily put an old gambar (too narrow for the blade to completely fit) and an old gandar from a different lot.
Attached Images
   
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2019, 09:22 PM   #2
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

I would classify this blade as Segaluh, which is West Jawa, not North Coast, but is quite commonly found in North Coast dress ---- in fact Segaluh blades are very commonly found in dress from all over the region, it is a very old classification and was located near to a major trading port, so Segaluh blades spread to everywhere.

The hilt style can come from West Jawa, North Coast, through into East Jawa, so although not specifically Cirebon, it sits OK as Cirebon.

I believe this gambar will accommodate the blade with just a very minor degree of adjustment.

Use of a horn selut is a common repair.

The mendak is a nice mating for this ensemble.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 07:52 AM   #3
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

I fully agree with Alan's comments but just add that the scabbard is from East Java IMO so is not perfectly matching with the blade & hilt. I will soon post a similar blade which I just purchased for comparison.
Regards

Last edited by Jean : 23rd June 2019 at 09:49 AM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 09:47 AM   #4
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

Pics of my similar blade in Segaluh style, also similar to Patje's blade in another recent thread. The nice ivory hilt is in alternative style from West Java/ North Coast/ East Java.
Regards
Attached Images
  
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 12:39 PM   #5
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

Jean, can you explain why you favour East Jawa for the scabbard?

Athanase tells us he put it together from two unrelated pieces, so both of these must be from East Jawa?

Personally I would have a lot of difficulty in placing a scabbard like this into any particular area. Javanese, certainly, but where in Jawa? Well somewhere that is not under the direct influence of a kraton. Who might have used such a scabbard? I think I'd probably be placing the original owner towards the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

East Jawa does have some distinctive styles, but I would hesitate to include this scabbard amongst those styles.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 05:25 PM   #6
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 261
Default

Thank you for this valuable information!

For the scabbard, the gambar was originally with another old Keris Segaluh blade, but it lacked the ganja (without gandar, without mendak nor handle).
For the gandar, which comes from a lot of spare pieces of scabbard.
The wood and the form is very similar to what I have more complete from Madura and East Java (and perhaps also central java) which are, in Europe, the most common origins of Kriss or their spare parts.

Last edited by Athanase : 23rd June 2019 at 06:34 PM.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 06:44 PM   #7
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

Alan, SÚverin,
Thank you for your messages.
From my observations and references the scabbard from SÚverin is typical of the gayaman style from East Java/ Madura (see another typical specimen shown on my first pic).
Again from my observations and references the old kris scabbards from West Java and the North Coast of Java (Cirebon and Tegal) are very rarely (if any) made from timoho pelet wood but rather from a local dark wood which could be kayu areng or sono keling? Also the gayaman style of scabbard is quite rare in these areas and the gandar has a specific shape (thick and wide at the mouth and with a peculiar shape of buntut) unlike the scabbards from East Java. You can see 2 typical specimens on my second and third pic, the first one is from Java North Coast and the second one probably from West Java.
Of course I could be wrong and apologize in advance.
Regards
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Jean : 23rd June 2019 at 07:27 PM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 07:21 PM   #8
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

Another typical gayaman scabbard from East Java/ Madura.
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 10:44 PM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

Thank you for your response Jean, we can all be wrong, so apologies are not necessary, similarly, we all only give opinions based upon our own experience, and since all of us have limited experience our opinions are similarly limited.

My position on Severin's gambar is not that it is North Jawa. I am not comparing this scabbard as North Coast against East Coast. I am comparing it's component parts against all of the rest of Jawa.

In my experience the gambar displays Surakarta influence, it is similar in some ways to the areas to the West of Solo, towards Banyumas. To my eye it does not display any unique characteristics that would indicate East Jawa or North Coast Jawa. The craftsmanship is very pedestrian, there is nothing in this gambar that indicates the work of a highly skilled hand. I am not prepared to give an opinion on where it might be from, to my eye it is generic Jawa, but it does display Surakarta characteristics, and that is only to be expected because of the very widespread influence of Surakarta style (in all things).

I think I do understand why you want to place it as Jawa Timur, tapi for me the indicators are not strong enough.

The gandar used by Severin displays characteristics of two very old ladrangan wrongkos in my own collection, one of those was collected in Batavia around 1920, the other I bought in Sydney in 1956. Both the keris in these two wrongkos have ivory North Coast raksasa hilts, both are straight Tuban keris, both scabbards are made from timoho. The gambars of both keris are damaged badly neither are Cirebon ladrangs, in overall form they tend towards Ngyogyakarta, but I would not go so far as to classify them as Jogja. I cannot place these ladrang gambars into an area, they are just generic Jawa. Both gambars are original to the blades.

Jean, the top photo in your examples I would place as Madura, the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura. The bottom one puzzles me a little, I'd probably give it as Madura, but I would need to handle it to be sure.

I am reluctant to use material in Javanese wrongkos as an indicator. It is true that East Jawa wrongkos often use timoho or other kayu pelet, but timoho & pelet occurs in wrongkos from all over Jawa & Bali. In my opinion material is not a good location indicator. The only reliable indicator is style.

In any case, once this gambar & gandar have been properly mated, and the blade properly fitted, it will present as a very nice old keris, one that other collectors in 100 years time will try to classify --- and those collectors also will have limited experience, even more limited than collectors of today.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 24th June 2019 at 12:25 AM.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2019, 08:01 AM   #10
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura.


Alan,
The scabbard (iras) shown on my second picture is undoubtfully old and looks original but the gambar is undersized indeed and the gandar was probably covered by a pendok, which gives it its odd appearance.
Regarding the proposed West Java origin for the third specimen, I have relied on the opinion of the Swiss expert Gaspard de Marval, see page 41 of his reference book "Le Monde du Kriss", and he also shows a typical gayaman scabbard from East Java.
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2019, 12:27 PM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

Thank you for that reference Jean.

Interesting.

Not infrequently I find my opinions are at variance with those who are regarded as experts. Probably because I have not learnt from the books of these experts, but rather have formed my own opinions based upon my own observations and what I have been told by people living in Jawa and Bali, whom I have regarded as knowing more than I do.

In respect of the second wrongko that I think shows some indications of re-work, I was not looking so much at the gandar, but rather at some peculiarities in the overall workmanship. Still, this is immaterial, it is a given that any old wrongko will have sustained some damage, and along the way that damage will have been repaired.

Actually Jean, I am not now and have not been for a very long time on any crusade to bring enlightenment to the world, if others treasure beliefs different to my own I am quite happy to allow those beliefs to go undisturbed. A long time in the past I did hold the conviction that all things related to the keris could be quantified, classified and registered as being just so. I no longer hold this conviction. My present position is that a very few things are inarguable, nearly everything else is quite hazy.

I believe that perhaps the majority of experienced students of the keris now understand that most keris "knowledge" is in fact part of one keris belief system or another. I am of the opinion that at least one of those keris belief systems has been generated by those people who collect the physical keris.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 24th June 2019 at 12:47 PM.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2019, 01:50 PM   #12
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Jean, the top photo in your examples I would place as Madura, the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura. The bottom one puzzles me a little, I'd probably give it as Madura, but I would need to handle it to be sure.

Just an observation and perhaps a literal "point of order" here.
It has been my experience that when we post images on this site they don't always appear in the same order on everyone's computer screen. For instance, when i look at Jean's post that Alan is discussing in the above quote, the timoho pelet wrongko is the third and last image to appear and the "dark wood" wrongko that Jean describes as West Jawa appears first. Fortunately Alan does refer to what he sees as the third image as the "dark wood" wrongko. Otherwise i would have been mislead by his assessment. I wanted to point this out so that everyone is aware of this issue when they post numerous keris in a single post.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #13
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Just an observation and perhaps a literal "point of order" here.
It has been my experience that when we post images on this site they don't always appear in the same order on everyone's computer screen. For instance, when i look at Jean's post that Alan is discussing in the above quote, the timoho pelet wrongko is the third and last image to appear and the "dark wood" wrongko that Jean describes as West Jawa appears first. Fortunately Alan does refer to what he sees as the third image as the "dark wood" wrongko. Otherwise i would have been mislead by his assessment. I wanted to point this out so that everyone is aware of this issue when they post numerous keris in a single post.


You are fully correct David, it seems as if the pics order has been changed but from memory it was correct when I posted them?
My supposed first pic shows the scabbard made from timoho pelet (last one on my screen now), the second one is the large scabbard made from medium dark wood, and the third one (on top on my screen now) is the dark scabbard with a thick gambar. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:48 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.