Could the eyelash mark originate from Vienna ?

DavidFriedman · 15th October 2023, 03:27 AM

More pics of larger Tulwar

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2023, 12:20 AM

Yes the first 'Tipu' style saber has a 'European' blade, as Styria is a region in Austria, considered part of Europe.

The tulwar is also a remarkable sword, and if these are both yours, you seem to have a most discerning eye for notable examples. While the blade is multi fullered in similar manner, the blade with widened distal end (yelman) and the hollowed spine suggest more Central Asian, perhaps Caucasian origin. However the blunted blade near hilt suggests possible North Indian origin, with this feature termed 'the Indian ricasso'.

It is a northern tulwar, and in typical Indo-Persian form with the disc pommel etc. of Rajasthani style and with that seemingly canted it seems again to call on certain Central Asian conventions . The notable 'sickle marks' seem remarkably well executed , but these are well known on Caucasian made blades as 'gurda'.
The form of tulwar prevalent in Afghanistan (paluoar)with quite distinctly different features than Indo-Persian (downturned quillons, bowl type pommel) is known to most often have sickle marks on the blade, while they do not seem as prevalent on blades to the south except as noted with European blades.

Attached N.Indian (Afghan) paluoar, note the sickle marks on Indian blade made, with these virtually ubiquitous on these Afghan swords'blades.
Next is an old Mughal tulwar with the distinctive Central Asian style yelman, widened point. This feature was designed to add impetus to the deadly draw cut which was a characteristic method in mounted swordsmanship favored by these tribal warriors.

DavidFriedman · 16th October 2023, 02:35 AM

Thanks Jim,
I have ordered the larger disk pommel Tulwar, but it isn’t on hand yet, awaiting customs paperwork etc.

Thanks you for your kind words, and your thoughts on the larger tulwars blade.

The photos of the tiger hilt Tulwar weren’t super clear on some areas. The tiger hilt saber has the same type of hollowed spine (for the first part of the blades length, just narrower but in the same ratio to the spine as the disk pommel tulwar), also has a razor sharp yelman, albeit non protruding from the line of the blades spine.

Could the larger Tulwar with disk pommel possibly have been made in the Caucasus or Central Asia for a North Indian client? One who would request the Indian ricasso.

Thanks.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2023, 04:55 AM

David,
It is mostly about trade blades, not clientele. Caucasian blades were popular in Arabia, and Arab regions which of course led into regions in India. It would be difficult to pinpoint the networks and entrepots in which these blades would reach the locations where these swords were mounted.

There were locations in India where blades were produced, and hilts were produced in other locations, with many in Rajasthan. Often these hilts were sent to other locations where locally favored decoration was applied, and blades mounted.

The study of Indian arms is complex, and as always there are many exceptions and variations, but in my experience most of these multi fuller blades seem to be either European or from Caucasian exports which often ended up going into Arab trade networks. In the 19th century Persian trade blades began to show up in these blade commodities. such as the noted 'Assad Adullah' examples .
Again, always exceptions, and the hollowed spine on the Mysori saber is intriguing.

DavidFriedman · 17th October 2023, 02:32 AM

Thanks Jim!
Later I’ll upload some closer pics of the Mysore hilt blade channeling on the spine etc.

kronckew · 17th October 2023, 03:07 PM

qalso have a pulwar with 3 sets of eyelash markings along the right side of tye unfullered blade:

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2023, 06:24 PM

Thanks David, like to see pics of that spine.
I found a plate of blade cross sections of Polish and in degree Hungarian swords in "Cecia Prazdziwa Szabla" , Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989, p.62,
which shows several blade sections with 'indented spine', probably 18th into early 19th c.

Polish swords (and Hungarian) had blades made in Lvov (once Poland-Lithuania, then Austria now western Ukraine) typically Armenian makers; Graz and several other cities in Styria (SE Austria).
Lvov had prevalent trade contact with Venice, and all of these were in the complex geopolitical network of the Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire).

The well known 'sickle' marks traveled through all these networks becoming a symbolic device subtly denoting quality and were widely copied and used in various configurations and applications.
The markings became notably used in Styrian blades, and it is believed that through Genoan trade networks in the Black Sea they entered the Caucasian sphere, becoming known as 'gurda' (=good blade).

Wayne, outstanding paluoar!!! and to see these 'sickles' placed multiply as well as 'strategically' as often seen on Indian blades where the three dots (trimurti) are often placed at key locations on blades.

Pics attached of a Khevsur 'pranguli' (Caucasian Georgia late 19th c) with blade believed of Ataghi aul (Chechnya) using the 'gurda' in linear motif, reflectjng the potential talismanic imbuement of multiples. I have seen similar linear application of these 'sickles' on some Indian swords.

DavidFriedman · 18th October 2023, 02:32 AM

Wow, that’s a lot of eyelash/gurda marks on the Georgian/ Chechnyan saber. Beautiful blade.

Wayne’s Pulwar is very nice too.

Here are some more close up pics of the blade. The indented spine only extends 7 inches, up to the point (I don’t know the name of this feature) where the spine of the blade dips inwards about 1/16 of an inch. Where the blade maintains a broadness of 1 inch until the yelman.

The first 2 inches of the front of the blade (ricasso) is dull. Yelman is a bit over 9 inches.

A very light and nimble dancer.

15th October 2023, 03:27 AM	#1
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	More pics of larger Tulwar Attached Images

16th October 2023, 12:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Yes the first 'Tipu' style saber has a 'European' blade, as Styria is a region in Austria, considered part of Europe. The tulwar is also a remarkable sword, and if these are both yours, you seem to have a most discerning eye for notable examples. While the blade is multi fullered in similar manner, the blade with widened distal end (yelman) and the hollowed spine suggest more Central Asian, perhaps Caucasian origin. However the blunted blade near hilt suggests possible North Indian origin, with this feature termed 'the Indian ricasso'. It is a northern tulwar, and in typical Indo-Persian form with the disc pommel etc. of Rajasthani style and with that seemingly canted it seems again to call on certain Central Asian conventions . The notable 'sickle marks' seem remarkably well executed , but these are well known on Caucasian made blades as 'gurda'. The form of tulwar prevalent in Afghanistan (paluoar)with quite distinctly different features than Indo-Persian (downturned quillons, bowl type pommel) is known to most often have sickle marks on the blade, while they do not seem as prevalent on blades to the south except as noted with European blades. Attached N.Indian (Afghan) paluoar, note the sickle marks on Indian blade made, with these virtually ubiquitous on these Afghan swords'blades. Next is an old Mughal tulwar with the distinctive Central Asian style yelman, widened point. This feature was designed to add impetus to the deadly draw cut which was a characteristic method in mounted swordsmanship favored by these tribal warriors. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th October 2023 at 12:43 AM.

17th October 2023, 03:07 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	qalso have a pulwar with 3 sets of eyelash markings along the right side of tye unfullered blade: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 17th October 2023 at 04:22 PM.

17th October 2023, 06:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thanks David, like to see pics of that spine. I found a plate of blade cross sections of Polish and in degree Hungarian swords in "Cecia Prazdziwa Szabla" , Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989, p.62, which shows several blade sections with 'indented spine', probably 18th into early 19th c. Polish swords (and Hungarian) had blades made in Lvov (once Poland-Lithuania, then Austria now western Ukraine) typically Armenian makers; Graz and several other cities in Styria (SE Austria). Lvov had prevalent trade contact with Venice, and all of these were in the complex geopolitical network of the Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire). The well known 'sickle' marks traveled through all these networks becoming a symbolic device subtly denoting quality and were widely copied and used in various configurations and applications. The markings became notably used in Styrian blades, and it is believed that through Genoan trade networks in the Black Sea they entered the Caucasian sphere, becoming known as 'gurda' (=good blade). Wayne, outstanding paluoar!!! and to see these 'sickles' placed multiply as well as 'strategically' as often seen on Indian blades where the three dots (trimurti) are often placed at key locations on blades. Pics attached of a Khevsur 'pranguli' (Caucasian Georgia late 19th c) with blade believed of Ataghi aul (Chechnya) using the 'gurda' in linear motif, reflectjng the potential talismanic imbuement of multiples. I have seen similar linear application of these 'sickles' on some Indian swords. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th October 2023 at 06:41 PM.

18th October 2023, 02:32 AM	#8
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Wow, that’s a lot of eyelash/gurda marks on the Georgian/ Chechnyan saber. Beautiful blade. Wayne’s Pulwar is very nice too. Here are some more close up pics of the blade. The indented spine only extends 7 inches, up to the point (I don’t know the name of this feature) where the spine of the blade dips inwards about 1/16 of an inch. Where the blade maintains a broadness of 1 inch until the yelman. The first 2 inches of the front of the blade (ricasso) is dull. Yelman is a bit over 9 inches. A very light and nimble dancer. Attached Images

16th October 2023, 02:35 AM	#3
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Thanks Jim, I have ordered the larger disk pommel Tulwar, but it isn’t on hand yet, awaiting customs paperwork etc. Thanks you for your kind words, and your thoughts on the larger tulwars blade. The photos of the tiger hilt Tulwar weren’t super clear on some areas. The tiger hilt saber has the same type of hollowed spine (for the first part of the blades length, just narrower but in the same ratio to the spine as the disk pommel tulwar), also has a razor sharp yelman, albeit non protruding from the line of the blades spine. Could the larger Tulwar with disk pommel possibly have been made in the Caucasus or Central Asia for a North Indian client? One who would request the Indian ricasso. Thanks.

16th October 2023, 04:55 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	David, It is mostly about trade blades, not clientele. Caucasian blades were popular in Arabia, and Arab regions which of course led into regions in India. It would be difficult to pinpoint the networks and entrepots in which these blades would reach the locations where these swords were mounted. There were locations in India where blades were produced, and hilts were produced in other locations, with many in Rajasthan. Often these hilts were sent to other locations where locally favored decoration was applied, and blades mounted. The study of Indian arms is complex, and as always there are many exceptions and variations, but in my experience most of these multi fuller blades seem to be either European or from Caucasian exports which often ended up going into Arab trade networks. In the 19th century Persian trade blades began to show up in these blade commodities. such as the noted 'Assad Adullah' examples . Again, always exceptions, and the hollowed spine on the Mysori saber is intriguing.

17th October 2023, 02:32 AM	#5
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Thanks Jim! Later I’ll upload some closer pics of the Mysore hilt blade channeling on the spine etc.