Spanish Carbine ID

rickystl · 10th June 2011, 05:24 PM

Hello all. I purchased this from a local gun show last year. This is a really unusual - but interesting - gun. I can't seem to pin a date as to it's original manufacture. The stock and brass mounts are definitely Spanish. Note: The lock on this gun was originally a standard type flintlock (like the original French/English style). The original lock mortise was filled with a wooden plug and re-inleted to accept the now miquelet lock. The lock is a sporting style with engraving all over. So, not a military item. (Hammer, top jaw, and screw are a replacement from the Riffle Shoppe) So, it appears obvious that this gun was originally in military use, and later (due to a broken/missing flintlock) recommissioned for civilian use. The plug and re-inletting was done very professionally - and back in the period. I know the Spanish military originally adopted the miquelet lock, changed to the standard type flintlock in the 1750's (I think) and then back to the miquelet about 1790. This gun has all the features of a musket. But it is carbine length. There is no sign that the barrel and stock were shortened in the past. In fact, it even has a lug for a bayonet on the lower part of the muzzle. Anyone have any research material that might be able to identify this carbine - in it's original form? Any help appreciated. Thanks, Rick.

fernando · 10th June 2011, 09:04 PM

Hi Rick,
Nice piece.
It is amazing that the (present) lock is a regional work, as having being made in Coruña; this is a particular situation, as most locks (and guns) bear marks of more charismatic centers, like Madrid, Ripol and so.
The barrel appears to keep its maker's mark quite readable, which so often doesn't happen. Can you post a close up picture of it?

rickystl · 10th June 2011, 09:25 PM

Hi Fernando. Thanks so much for the comment. At least I now know which City the lock was probably made in. Yes, I will take a close-up of the barrel marks (there are two) tomorrow. As well, there is more on the frizzen that I forgot to post. Thanks, Rick.

rickystl · 11th June 2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Rick,
Nice piece.
It is amazing that the (present) lock is a regional work, as having being made in Coruña; this is a particular situation, as most locks (and guns) bear marks of more charismatic centers, like Madrid, Ripol and so.
The barrel appears to keep its maker's mark quite readable, which so often doesn't happen. Can you post a close up picture of it?

Hello Fernando. Here is some additional pics, including an additional mark on the lower part of the frizzen. Do you know what the R on the wrist inlay stands for? Ripol? Hope you can read the barrel mark? If not, I'll try to get even closer. Thanks, Rick.

fernando · 11th June 2011, 07:32 PM

TREVIÑO in the frizzen. This could be either a name of a village or the name of the lockmaker. Given that there is already a place (Coruña) engraved in the upper part, we must infer that Treviño is the name of the lock maker, a Galego (Galitian) in/from Coruña.
I didn't find a barrel (gun) mark with similar lettering in James Lavin's fine work "A History of Firearms". Try to take a better picture; not necessarily larger, but a bit more accurate. We can try and decipher the name that is there, even if it is not from a famous smith.
The R is a bit rustic; i wouldn't go for "Ripol" or even "Royal". Probably is the owner last name initial, engraved at delivery.
Mind you, i am not a specialist; other members may show up and give you better opinions

.

rickystl · 11th June 2011, 09:54 PM

Fernando: Thank you so very much for the information. I will try to get a clearer picture of the barrel mark. It is difficult due to the fact that rust was taking over the barrel when I first aquired it. Thanks, Rick.

Fernando K · 12th June 2011, 10:21 PM

Hola, Rick

1º - No es una arma militar. Las guarniciones, abrazaderas del cañón (barrel), la placa de la culata y el guardamonte son de forma curvilínea.
2º - La parte de la caja (stock) donde se encaja (inleting) la llave(lock) parece haber sido para una llave de miquelete (miquelet lock) perdida y reemplazada por la actual, particularmente por su forma redonda.
3º - No he podido descifrar el punzón del cañón (barrel).
4º - El "punto" (lug) para la bayoneta, si es original, puede haber sido para calzar una bayoneta de caza.
5º - El escudo (escutcheon) con la letra R, no denota Ripoll (y no Ripol) y tradicionalmente usada para las iniciales del dueño.
6º - Por todo esto, creo que es un fusil o una carabina de caza, capaz de encastar una bayoneta.
7º - Ramiro Larrañaga, en "Sintesis Histórica de la Armería Vasca" (pagina 243) trae:
Treviño, Calixto de . Placencia. 1800
Treviño,Diego de . Limador. Eibar, 1762.
Treviño, Fermín de . Placencia, 1800
Treviño, Fernando de . Cajero (stockmaker). 1762.

Fernando K (no de Kirchner).

Hi, Rick

1 - not a military weapon. Fittings, clamps the barrel (barrel), the butt plate and trigger guard are curvilinear.
2 - The part of the box (stock) which is embedded (inleting) key (lock) appears to have been for a key Miquelet (Miquelet lock) lost and replaced by the current, particularly by its round shape.
3 - I could not figure out the punch of the gun (barrel).
4 - The "point" (lug) to the bayonet, if original, may have been to fit a bayonet fighter.
5 - The shield (escutcheon) with the letter R denotes no Ripoll (not Ripol) and traditionally used for the owner's initials.
6 - For all that, I think it is a rifle or hunting rifle capable of mating with a bayonet.
7 - Ramiro Larranaga, in "An introduction to the Armory Vasca" (page 243) brings:
Treviño, Calixto. Placencia. 1800
Treviño, Diego de. Filer. Eibar, 1762.
Treviño, Fermin. Placencia, 1800
Treviño, Fernando de. Cashier (stockmaker). 1762.

Fernando K (not Kirchner).

10th June 2011, 05:24 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Spanish Carbine ID Hello all. I purchased this from a local gun show last year. This is a really unusual - but interesting - gun. I can't seem to pin a date as to it's original manufacture. The stock and brass mounts are definitely Spanish. Note: The lock on this gun was originally a standard type flintlock (like the original French/English style). The original lock mortise was filled with a wooden plug and re-inleted to accept the now miquelet lock. The lock is a sporting style with engraving all over. So, not a military item. (Hammer, top jaw, and screw are a replacement from the Riffle Shoppe) So, it appears obvious that this gun was originally in military use, and later (due to a broken/missing flintlock) recommissioned for civilian use. The plug and re-inletting was done very professionally - and back in the period. I know the Spanish military originally adopted the miquelet lock, changed to the standard type flintlock in the 1750's (I think) and then back to the miquelet about 1790. This gun has all the features of a musket. But it is carbine length. There is no sign that the barrel and stock were shortened in the past. In fact, it even has a lug for a bayonet on the lower part of the muzzle. Anyone have any research material that might be able to identify this carbine - in it's original form? Any help appreciated. Thanks, Rick. Attached Images

10th June 2011, 09:04 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Rick, Nice piece. It is amazing that the (present) lock is a regional work, as having being made in Coruña; this is a particular situation, as most locks (and guns) bear marks of more charismatic centers, like Madrid, Ripol and so. The barrel appears to keep its maker's mark quite readable, which so often doesn't happen. Can you post a close up picture of it?

10th June 2011, 09:25 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Fernando. Thanks so much for the comment. At least I now know which City the lock was probably made in. Yes, I will take a close-up of the barrel marks (there are two) tomorrow. As well, there is more on the frizzen that I forgot to post. Thanks, Rick.

11th June 2011, 07:32 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	TREVIÑO in the frizzen. This could be either a name of a village or the name of the lockmaker. Given that there is already a place (Coruña) engraved in the upper part, we must infer that Treviño is the name of the lock maker, a Galego (Galitian) in/from Coruña. I didn't find a barrel (gun) mark with similar lettering in James Lavin's fine work "A History of Firearms". Try to take a better picture; not necessarily larger, but a bit more accurate. We can try and decipher the name that is there, even if it is not from a famous smith. The R is a bit rustic; i wouldn't go for "Ripol" or even "Royal". Probably is the owner last name initial, engraved at delivery. Mind you, i am not a specialist; other members may show up and give you better opinions .

11th June 2011, 09:54 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Fernando: Thank you so very much for the information. I will try to get a clearer picture of the barrel mark. It is difficult due to the fact that rust was taking over the barrel when I first aquired it. Thanks, Rick.

12th June 2011, 10:21 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hola, Rick 1º - No es una arma militar. Las guarniciones, abrazaderas del cañón (barrel), la placa de la culata y el guardamonte son de forma curvilínea. 2º - La parte de la caja (stock) donde se encaja (inleting) la llave(lock) parece haber sido para una llave de miquelete (miquelet lock) perdida y reemplazada por la actual, particularmente por su forma redonda. 3º - No he podido descifrar el punzón del cañón (barrel). 4º - El "punto" (lug) para la bayoneta, si es original, puede haber sido para calzar una bayoneta de caza. 5º - El escudo (escutcheon) con la letra R, no denota Ripoll (y no Ripol) y tradicionalmente usada para las iniciales del dueño. 6º - Por todo esto, creo que es un fusil o una carabina de caza, capaz de encastar una bayoneta. 7º - Ramiro Larrañaga, en "Sintesis Histórica de la Armería Vasca" (pagina 243) trae: Treviño, Calixto de . Placencia. 1800 Treviño,Diego de . Limador. Eibar, 1762. Treviño, Fermín de . Placencia, 1800 Treviño, Fernando de . Cajero (stockmaker). 1762. Fernando K (no de Kirchner). Hi, Rick 1 - not a military weapon. Fittings, clamps the barrel (barrel), the butt plate and trigger guard are curvilinear. 2 - The part of the box (stock) which is embedded (inleting) key (lock) appears to have been for a key Miquelet (Miquelet lock) lost and replaced by the current, particularly by its round shape. 3 - I could not figure out the punch of the gun (barrel). 4 - The "point" (lug) to the bayonet, if original, may have been to fit a bayonet fighter. 5 - The shield (escutcheon) with the letter R denotes no Ripoll (not Ripol) and traditionally used for the owner's initials. 6 - For all that, I think it is a rifle or hunting rifle capable of mating with a bayonet. 7 - Ramiro Larranaga, in "An introduction to the Armory Vasca" (page 243) brings: Treviño, Calixto. Placencia. 1800 Treviño, Diego de. Filer. Eibar, 1762. Treviño, Fermin. Placencia, 1800 Treviño, Fernando de. Cashier (stockmaker). 1762. Fernando K (not Kirchner).