Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th April 2020, 11:04 AM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default old shamshir

Hello,
I'd like to share this old shamshir,
maybe persian ?

It was all rusty and hilt was damaged...
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2020, 11:09 AM   #2
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Then I cleaned and sand it gently
( I got time with coronavirus... at least one good thing with this problem !)

Was sols as wood handle, it is horn and the blade seems not that bad !

a 19th persian shamshir ?
Attached Images
     
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2020, 11:17 AM   #3
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

before cleaning...
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2020, 12:16 PM   #4
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 592
Default

It looks like you got a goodun there.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2020, 03:26 PM   #5
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Hello,
Thank you David!!

I like when old forgotten stuff revive again !!

( I think it's the same for all members on this forum ! )

Finally I think that's the handle is the most interesting piece :
Nice translucence,
Giraffe or maybe rhino !?!
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 01:01 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,470
Default

Nice job. Yes the hilt could be rhino horn.

Have you etched the blade yet?
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 07:11 AM   #7
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Hello and Thank you,

No I haven't etched it,
I have no more ferric chloride ( and no nital here...)

I cleaned the blade with sand paper
WD-40 and vinegar alternately , maybe there is a pattern,
maybe a structure on the guard too

sure I have to try...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 08:15 AM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello,
Finally I think that's the handle is the most interesting piece :
Nice translucence,
Giraffe or maybe rhino !?!



If I put a torch behind by ears for sure they will be red.
But my ears are not rhino...

Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 08:55 AM   #9
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Sure !

But I don't think your ears are brown when not enlightened
and hope for you they are not thick and hard and fibrous as wood ...

I have other brown horn hilts and no light at all
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 09:49 AM   #10
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 833
Default

Thank you for taking a photo backlit. Now the structure of the horn shows that this is not a rhino ...
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 11:14 AM   #11
Green
Member
 
Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Thank you for taking a photo backlit. Now the structure of the horn shows that this is not a rhino ...


How does the rhino horn look like when it is backlit ?
Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 12:08 PM   #12
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
How does the rhino horn look like when it is backlit ?


Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 12:47 PM   #13
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,970
Default

Francantolin:

You got an honest old munition grade shamshir. I like those. Whether it was made in Persia proper, or in one of the "persianized" localities is and will remain unknown, but the overall gestalt is no doubt Persian.

Not every Persian or any other fighter was wealthy enough to afford a walrus handle. This is why we see a lot of Persian shamshirs utilizing cheaper handle materials such as oxhorn, deer antler and even wood. From the practical point of view it did not matter: the proof was in the blade, although even those were of a widely different quality.

It is just like with all other antique objects: museums tend to collect and exhibit flashier examples in a perfect state of preservation: rich materials, weapons belonging to royalty, signed by famous masters etc. Simpler examples were lost, reforged, modified, or just rusted away.

The al-Sabah collection in Kuwait specifically acquires only items that are gem-encrusted, gilt or made of exotic and costly materials. If we use it as as a representative source and a standard, all other Indian weapons would be regarded as renovated or just plain fakes.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 02:58 PM   #14
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales


Absolutely right
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 05:30 PM   #15
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Hello everybody,

Here some pictures of the hilt with / without backlit,

I think too ( thank you Ariel for your comment !) that it was an old fighting weapon and not a ''court sword''.
( is it pre-19th century ??)

First I thought it was made of wood as told the seller or horn,

when I cleaned it and the surface make me think more of ?
don't really know?? : Ibex or deer horn antler
and time and special treatments ...

Then trying with torch light, the translucence directed me to giraffe horn or rhino as often discussed on the forum...

The red light effect is amazing ! ( rhino, giraffe or not )

Hope these pictures can help to fix it.

What do you think ?
Attached Images
      
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 08:04 PM   #16
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

And two more ''back light pictures'',
taken with another cellphone and his ''targeted'' torch.

Better...
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 08:05 PM   #17
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

the other side of the shamshir hilt...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2020, 09:24 PM   #18
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
What do you think ?


This is a good shamshir. A real sword for war.
I think this is the 19th century (most likely the second half). The fact is that very few 18th century shamshirs are in private collections.
Now about the handle of a shamshir. The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2020, 09:35 AM   #19
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.


Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2020, 09:48 AM   #20
Ren Ren
Member
 
Ren Ren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 157
Default

I think it could be a ram horn. Before they knew how to straighten him and did not spare time for this.
Ren Ren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2020, 10:25 AM   #21
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Hello, thank you all for your comments !

I don't think it's rhino but not convinced by the ''cow-buffalo horn'' too !


Just for discuss,

For the fighter sword and basic hilt argument who can not have rhino or giraffe,

I just wonder about ''basics'' gurade swords with rhino hilts per example or some simple not ornamented old oriental daggers made with rhino ,

for the ''non slippery '' particularity more than for the prestige !
( They were rare but chinese made it more exceptionals these last decades
no ? )


For the prestigious sword mounted with rhino more than horn argument,

I just wanted to show you these pictures of an old shamshir -kilij sold in an auction, reaaaally expensive !
sold as rhino hilted ,
( they are scales and not really straight lines is it ''just'' blond horn ? )

Kind regards
Attached Images
   
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2020, 10:28 AM   #22
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 424
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.



Sure, I have to try to etch it in the right way and with the right stuff when I can...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2020, 02:03 PM   #23
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,970
Default

The handle is old and worn. God only knows what kind of degrading changes it might have undergone. My guess of cattle horn is based mainly on the presence of layers of separation. Rhinos usually do not have it, cattle often does.

I can only second a recommendation for etching.

Overall, I am somewhat pessimistic about the possibility of a precise dating. But in any case, it is certain that you got yourself an old Persian-style Shamshir belonging to a fighting man. For me, with my tastes and criteria of worthiness and attractiveness, it would be more than enough.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:26 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.