An unusual Shaska

harrywagner · 2nd March 2016, 07:54 PM

This just arrived. I've had time to measure and photograph it, but not much else. LOA: 40.25", LOB: 35". It is my first Shaska. It is one of the edged weapons on my "must have" list. I took a risk buying it. I don’t know much about these. I do know that you don’t often see them with cross-guards. Or at least I don’t. The hilt is bifurcated and I believe horn, but could also be wood. The blade is stamped on the spine with what looks like a makers mark. It appears to be a “V” and a dot. I keep thinking I see a pattern in the steel, but am not certain. No scabbard. The seller thought it was 19c Ottoman. I'm hoping someone here can help determine it's origin.

All comments welcome and appreciated. TIA!

Harry

TVV · 2nd March 2016, 08:01 PM

I believe the seller was correct. The guard was taken from a late 19th century Ottoman military pattern, and the crescent on the pommel is certainly consistent with an Ottoman use as well. There seems to have been a lot of variation and leeway in 19th century military patterns in the Empire and it is a topic I am not familiar with at all. There is a book on Ottoman military sword patterns by Branko Bogdanovic, but it is in Russian and not easily available from major online book retailers.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 2nd March 2016, 10:10 PM

Wow! Harry, good call!!
While of course this is not a 'shashka' per se', It certainly is an anomaly which is likely in the spectrum of variants as Ottoman forces were being 'westernized' as well as the possibility of this being aligned with the Caucasian and Balkan forces of the Ottomans.

The clefted pommel with the characteristic shashka profile as well as the blade, which seems compellingly like East European (often Hungarian) forms which also were often seen on shashkas, suggest possible association in Janissary units (?) or those using Caucasian forces.

As Teodor well notes, the guard, though incongruent, looks like an Ottoman military type.

There have been numbers of these unusual hybrids coming from Ottoman ranks, and one other type I think of is the sabre which for all intents and purposes like a kilij or pala with a stirrup type knuckleguard, and these were 19th century as well.

Excellent example !!!

estcrh · 3rd March 2016, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow! Harry, good call!!
While of course this is not a 'shashka' per se', It certainly is an anomaly which is likely in the spectrum of variants as Ottoman forces were being 'westernized' as well as the possibility of this being aligned with the Caucasian and Balkan forces of the Ottomans.

Jim, I see no reason why this would (not) be a shashka, the Circassians used shashka and were heavily involved with the Ottoman forces and later the New Turkish governmant forces following their exile from Russia, they are mentioned quite frequently along with a few other ethnic groups including the Zeybek as irregular forces used in military campaigns during the 1800s and into the 1900s. This sword could have been an attempt to display alignment/allegiance with the Ottoman/Turkish forces by a Circassian.

On the other hand....it could have also been a war trophy captured during one of the militry conflicts between the Ottomans/Turkish forces and the Russians that was later Ottomanized a bit by its new Ottoman/Turkish owner with the addition of a guard and cresent.

There are some examples of Ottoman mounted shashkas that I have seen, it would have been helpful if Harrys new sword had come with a scabbard as well.

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2016, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I see no reason why this would be a shashka, the Circassians used shashka and were heavily involved with the Ottoman forces and later the New Turkish governmant forces following their exile from Russia, they are mentioned quite frequently along with a few other ethnic groups including the Zeybek as irregular forces used in military campaigns during the 1800s and into the 1900s. This sword could have been an attempt to display alignment/allegiance with the Ottoman/Turkish forces by a Circassian.

On the other hand....it could have also been a war trophy captured during one of the militry conflicts between the Ottomans/Turkish forces and the Russians that was latter Ottomanized a bit by its new Ottoman/Turkish owner with the addition of a guard and cresent.

There are some examples of Ottoman mounted shashkas that I have seen, it would have been helpful if Harrys new sword had come with a scabbard as well.

Estcrh, thanks for the great insight and for the agreement with my observation about the Caucasians (Circassians) in Ottoman service.
As I had noted, "it is not a shashka per se'" thus NOT actually a shashka but a weapon composite using the general form plus crossguard.
Agree, a scabbard always is helpful when evaluating these kinds of composite items...but this one still very intriguing.

ariel · 3rd March 2016, 03:50 AM

There is a long ( and often pretty vicious) argument about the origins of shashka. The blade is relatively simple: early Circassian blades were mostly European, very light, but later Daghestani ones could be quite heavy.
But the origin of the eared guard-less handle is still a mystery.
My guess is that it stems from the Turkish yataghan ( pure IMHO)

If so, re-fitting Caucasian shashka with an Ottoman crossguard might not have been such an unnatural idea for the owner and exiled Circassians ( muhadjirs) seem to be a natural group for the mix of an old and the new traditions.

estcrh · 3rd March 2016, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Estcrh, thanks for the great insight and for the agreement with my observation about the Caucasians (Circassians) in Ottoman service.
As I had noted, "it is not a shashka per se'" thus NOT actually a shashka but a weapon composite using the general form plus crossguard.
Agree, a scabbard always is helpful when evaluating these kinds of composite items...but this one still very intriguing.

Jim, my mistake in not checking what I wrote before posting, it should have read "I see no reason why this would NOT be a shashka". This sword comes at a good time as I have been searching for shashka with Ottoman scabbards and Harry comes up with an Ottoman fitted shashka sword. While thousands of Circassians ended up in the Ottoman empire and kept using shashka,I have not found many examples of shashka scabbards with an Ottoman influence and Harrys shashka is the first sword I have seen with an Ottoman influence.

Here is an example of a shashka with Ottoman type mounts.

Kubur · 3rd March 2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

On the other hand....it could have also been a war trophy captured during one of the militry conflicts between the Ottomans/Turkish forces and the Russians that was later Ottomanized a bit by its new Ottoman/Turkish owner with the addition of a guard and cresent.

There are some examples of Ottoman mounted shashkas that I have seen, it would have been helpful if Harrys new sword had come with a scabbard as well.

I totally agree with Estrech, it's a shashka converted to Ottoman military with a guard. The Turkish guy was lazy, normaly they keept the blade and change the whole thing...
Harry, the mark is a number v., 70 could be anything, regiment number or inventory number...
Best,
Kubur

harrywagner · 3rd March 2016, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Harry, the mark is a number v., 70 could be anything, regiment number or inventory number...
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur. Thanks! I was hoping someone here would know what that was. I would have never associated the mark with a number. What language is that? Thanks to you and others for the help!

2nd March 2016, 07:54 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	An unusual Shaska This just arrived. I've had time to measure and photograph it, but not much else. LOA: 40.25", LOB: 35". It is my first Shaska. It is one of the edged weapons on my "must have" list. I took a risk buying it. I don’t know much about these. I do know that you don’t often see them with cross-guards. Or at least I don’t. The hilt is bifurcated and I believe horn, but could also be wood. The blade is stamped on the spine with what looks like a makers mark. It appears to be a “V” and a dot. I keep thinking I see a pattern in the steel, but am not certain. No scabbard. The seller thought it was 19c Ottoman. I'm hoping someone here can help determine it's origin. All comments welcome and appreciated. TIA! Harry Attached Images

2nd March 2016, 08:01 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	I believe the seller was correct. The guard was taken from a late 19th century Ottoman military pattern, and the crescent on the pommel is certainly consistent with an Ottoman use as well. There seems to have been a lot of variation and leeway in 19th century military patterns in the Empire and it is a topic I am not familiar with at all. There is a book on Ottoman military sword patterns by Branko Bogdanovic, but it is in Russian and not easily available from major online book retailers. Teodor

2nd March 2016, 10:10 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Wow! Harry, good call!! While of course this is not a 'shashka' per se', It certainly is an anomaly which is likely in the spectrum of variants as Ottoman forces were being 'westernized' as well as the possibility of this being aligned with the Caucasian and Balkan forces of the Ottomans. The clefted pommel with the characteristic shashka profile as well as the blade, which seems compellingly like East European (often Hungarian) forms which also were often seen on shashkas, suggest possible association in Janissary units (?) or those using Caucasian forces. As Teodor well notes, the guard, though incongruent, looks like an Ottoman military type. There have been numbers of these unusual hybrids coming from Ottoman ranks, and one other type I think of is the sabre which for all intents and purposes like a kilij or pala with a stirrup type knuckleguard, and these were 19th century as well. Excellent example !!!

3rd March 2016, 03:50 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a long ( and often pretty vicious) argument about the origins of shashka. The blade is relatively simple: early Circassian blades were mostly European, very light, but later Daghestani ones could be quite heavy. But the origin of the eared guard-less handle is still a mystery. My guess is that it stems from the Turkish yataghan ( pure IMHO) If so, re-fitting Caucasian shashka with an Ottoman crossguard might not have been such an unnatural idea for the owner and exiled Circassians ( muhadjirs) seem to be a natural group for the mix of an old and the new traditions.