sword for id

weapons 27 · 5th February 2014, 06:01 PM

I think has a french bording cutlass
can you give me your opinion

Fernando K · 5th February 2014, 06:31 PM

Hello

Decorative piece?

Fernando K

fernando · 5th February 2014, 06:46 PM

Most probably, yes

VANDOO · 5th February 2014, 06:57 PM

I DON'T KNOW WHAT SMALL FEATURES SEPARATE THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WHO USED THIS FORM OF CUTLASS PERHAPS WE HAVE A MEMBER WITH THAT KNOWLEGE (COME IN JIM!

).
I HAD A 1870 MODEL USA CUTLASS THAT HAD THE BEST FEEL IN HAND OF ANY SWORD I OWN. UNFORTUNATELY I LET A FRIEND BUY IT TO PUT IN HIS PIRATE MUSEUM. I BOUGHT A FANCY WELL MADE NEWER VERSION TO WAVE AROUND, THOUGH IT LOOKED BETTER THAN MY ORIGINAL THE FEEL WAS MORE LIKE A FIREPLACE POKER THAN A SWORD.

WHAT YOU HAVE WOULD LIKELY HAVE BELONGED TO A CAPITAN OR HIGHER RANKING OFFICER OR COULD BE A REPLICA. TRY THE FEEL IN HAND AND SEE IF IT HAS AN EDGE THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING. THE CONDITION SHOWS LITTLE WEAR OR USE BUT THOSE USED BY HIGHER RANKING OFFICERS USUALLY DID NOT AND WERE WORN MOSTLY FOR DRESS ON FORMAL OCCASIONS NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE. MOST OF THE TIME THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN STORED AWAY IN THE SEA CHEST AND WELL MAINTAINED BY THE OFFICERS MAN.
THE SCABBARD SHOWS AGE AND TYPICAL DETEORIATION FOR AN OLDER ITEM SO IF ORIGINAL TO THE SWORD IS A GOOD SIGN. VICTORIAN REPLICAS WERE MADE AND OFTEN EMBELLISHED SIMULAR TO YOUR SWORD. I DON'T KNOW IF THESE REPLICAS WERE MADE BY THE SAME SWORD MAKERS AS THE STANDARD MILITARY GRADE OR NOT BUT LOOK FOR A MAKERS MARK AND IF IT MATCHES PERHAPS INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND OF OFFICER GRADE SWORDS AS WELL AS STANDARD ISSUE. I LIKE IT EITHER WAY AS IT IS A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE OF ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITE SWORDS. GOOD LUCK

CutlassCollector · 5th February 2014, 09:10 PM

That's an interesting cutlass and I've never seen one like that.
It has features of both the French 1833 especially the grip and of the US 1860 (riveted brass bowl) which was itself copied from the earlier French model. It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one.
Both these cutlasses had fullered blades and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat. As Vandoo says it appears authentic and well matched to the scabbard. Could be a one of made for an officer or for presentation or an old blade re-hilted. I don't think replica but it's always a possibility.
Regards, CC.

fernando · 5th February 2014, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one...

Good and wise point but ... to become an ornament or an officer equipment ?

fernando · 5th February 2014, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat...

Sorry my ignorance; could it be the blade of a "Briquet" ?

CutlassCollector · 5th February 2014, 10:13 PM

Good point, Fernando, perhaps you are right why go to the effort of embellishing a cutlass when you can have a fancy sword for an officer!

Perhaps with the blade cleaned up there may be some clues with markings. As you say these blades were usually well marked by the manufacturer on the spine and inspection marks on both the guard and ricasso. And usually some trace remains even on well worn blades.
Perhaps I am too optimistic and it is a a replica after all!
Regards, CC.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2014, 04:48 AM

Thank you Vandoo!

As Fernando has astutely observed, this does appear to be a briquette blade, and this cutlass appears to be a pastiche, and extremely nicely done .
As CC has well noted there appears to be elements of the French M1833 cutlass and the brass bowl of the US M1860 might well be in use as well.

What is curious is that the pommel cap is not in the shape of the regular M1833 French, it is straight and angled , where the original is curved (Gilkerson , 1991, p.79, "Boarders Away".
The M1833 developed from the M1801 'sabre de bord' which was apparently japanned black rather than brass with the bowl guard, and this is typically mounted off the knuckleguard and not butted to the grip and pommel .

Since this bowl guard cutlass, the French M1801/33, was very popular it was used by virtually every European country's naval forces, so perhaps there may have been variants, but the anchor embellishment on the guard does not seem likely for a weapon for rack issue.

fernando · 5th February 2014, 09:41 PM

If this were a genuine piece, so good for weapons 27.
Considering comparison with French boarding cutlasses, one expected to see inspector poinçons, manufacture marks etc. Also it doesn't look like the normaly French models, which guards have a more crude look; which wouldn't surprise us, once these are sailors (royal or pirate) battle weapons. I would guess (guess) boarding cutlasses do not include (embelished) officer versions. I have seconded Fernando K's opinion in that the guard looks a bit too exhuberant, an attribute usually seen in decoration pieces. The scabbard, on the other hand, contributes to genuinity, but this could have been from another sword, such one surely old.
Personaly i am a enthusiast of genuine examples; i can't help feeling frustrated when a piece is a replica ... specially if i am not aware.
In any case my knowledge is rather limited; my opinion must be secondarized.
I sincerly hope i am wrong and this sword is the real thing.

5th February 2014, 06:01 PM	#1
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	sword for id I think has a french bording cutlass can you give me your opinion Attached Images

5th February 2014, 06:31 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello Decorative piece? Fernando K

5th February 2014, 06:46 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Most probably, yes

5th February 2014, 06:57 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I DON'T KNOW WHAT SMALL FEATURES SEPARATE THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WHO USED THIS FORM OF CUTLASS PERHAPS WE HAVE A MEMBER WITH THAT KNOWLEGE (COME IN JIM! ). I HAD A 1870 MODEL USA CUTLASS THAT HAD THE BEST FEEL IN HAND OF ANY SWORD I OWN. UNFORTUNATELY I LET A FRIEND BUY IT TO PUT IN HIS PIRATE MUSEUM. I BOUGHT A FANCY WELL MADE NEWER VERSION TO WAVE AROUND, THOUGH IT LOOKED BETTER THAN MY ORIGINAL THE FEEL WAS MORE LIKE A FIREPLACE POKER THAN A SWORD. WHAT YOU HAVE WOULD LIKELY HAVE BELONGED TO A CAPITAN OR HIGHER RANKING OFFICER OR COULD BE A REPLICA. TRY THE FEEL IN HAND AND SEE IF IT HAS AN EDGE THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING. THE CONDITION SHOWS LITTLE WEAR OR USE BUT THOSE USED BY HIGHER RANKING OFFICERS USUALLY DID NOT AND WERE WORN MOSTLY FOR DRESS ON FORMAL OCCASIONS NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE. MOST OF THE TIME THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN STORED AWAY IN THE SEA CHEST AND WELL MAINTAINED BY THE OFFICERS MAN. THE SCABBARD SHOWS AGE AND TYPICAL DETEORIATION FOR AN OLDER ITEM SO IF ORIGINAL TO THE SWORD IS A GOOD SIGN. VICTORIAN REPLICAS WERE MADE AND OFTEN EMBELLISHED SIMULAR TO YOUR SWORD. I DON'T KNOW IF THESE REPLICAS WERE MADE BY THE SAME SWORD MAKERS AS THE STANDARD MILITARY GRADE OR NOT BUT LOOK FOR A MAKERS MARK AND IF IT MATCHES PERHAPS INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND OF OFFICER GRADE SWORDS AS WELL AS STANDARD ISSUE. I LIKE IT EITHER WAY AS IT IS A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE OF ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITE SWORDS. GOOD LUCK

5th February 2014, 09:10 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 321	That's an interesting cutlass and I've never seen one like that. It has features of both the French 1833 especially the grip and of the US 1860 (riveted brass bowl) which was itself copied from the earlier French model. It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one. Both these cutlasses had fullered blades and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat. As Vandoo says it appears authentic and well matched to the scabbard. Could be a one of made for an officer or for presentation or an old blade re-hilted. I don't think replica but it's always a possibility. Regards, CC.

5th February 2014, 10:13 PM	#8
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 321	Good point, Fernando, perhaps you are right why go to the effort of embellishing a cutlass when you can have a fancy sword for an officer! Perhaps with the blade cleaned up there may be some clues with markings. As you say these blades were usually well marked by the manufacturer on the spine and inspection marks on both the guard and ricasso. And usually some trace remains even on well worn blades. Perhaps I am too optimistic and it is a a replica after all! Regards, CC.

6th February 2014, 04:48 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Thank you Vandoo! As Fernando has astutely observed, this does appear to be a briquette blade, and this cutlass appears to be a pastiche, and extremely nicely done . As CC has well noted there appears to be elements of the French M1833 cutlass and the brass bowl of the US M1860 might well be in use as well. What is curious is that the pommel cap is not in the shape of the regular M1833 French, it is straight and angled , where the original is curved (Gilkerson , 1991, p.79, "Boarders Away". The M1833 developed from the M1801 'sabre de bord' which was apparently japanned black rather than brass with the bowl guard, and this is typically mounted off the knuckleguard and not butted to the grip and pommel . Since this bowl guard cutlass, the French M1801/33, was very popular it was used by virtually every European country's naval forces, so perhaps there may have been variants, but the anchor embellishment on the guard does not seem likely for a weapon for rack issue.

5th February 2014, 09:41 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	If this were a genuine piece, so good for weapons 27. Considering comparison with French boarding cutlasses, one expected to see inspector poinçons, manufacture marks etc. Also it doesn't look like the normaly French models, which guards have a more crude look; which wouldn't surprise us, once these are sailors (royal or pirate) battle weapons. I would guess (guess) boarding cutlasses do not include (embelished) officer versions. I have seconded Fernando K's opinion in that the guard looks a bit too exhuberant, an attribute usually seen in decoration pieces. The scabbard, on the other hand, contributes to genuinity, but this could have been from another sword, such one surely old. Personaly i am a enthusiast of genuine examples; i can't help feeling frustrated when a piece is a replica ... specially if i am not aware. In any case my knowledge is rather limited; my opinion must be secondarized. I sincerly hope i am wrong and this sword is the real thing.