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Old 28th January 2020, 05:27 AM   #1
Anthony G.
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Default Bugis keris pamor pattern name

Dear members

Is this a new invented pamor or there is a name for it?
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:56 AM   #2
A. G. Maisey
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I'd call it a Wiji Timun (cucumber seeds) variation if it were Javanese. As Bugis I don't know.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:06 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I'd call it a Wiji Timun (cucumber seeds) variation if it were Javanese. As Bugis I don't know.


thanks
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:54 AM   #4
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Sorry but I do not see Wiji timun pamor and this is quite a recent blade. A batu lapak is visible at the sorsoran.
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Old 28th January 2020, 04:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
Sorry but I do not see Wiji timun pamor and this is quite a recent blade. A batu lapak is visible at the sorsoran.

Yes Paul, i think Anthony is aware that this is a recent blade which is why he asked if the pamor pattern was a new invention.
Hopefully Alan will return and speak further about why he thinks it is a Wiji Timun variation.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:42 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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I have made Wiji Timun, I have seen Wiji Timun made many times. This blade has been made in the same way. It is surface manipulation. The reason it looks different to the usual Javanese Wiji Timun is because the "seeds" are spaced more widely and the blade geometry is different to a Javanese blade.
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Old 28th January 2020, 09:15 PM   #7
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WT is normally an arrangment of seeds lined up at the rigde of the blade but I have come across a similar modern blade with the WT variation just like the one in question. An eye-opener.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:07 AM   #8
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The pamor pattern of these 2 modern blades is quite different from the usual Javanese Wiji Timun pattern (see pics, pamor Beras Wutah/ Wiji Timun). The name game again....
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:34 AM   #9
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Indeed! That's why it confuses me ... a classical TM is so different from the topic example.
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Old 29th January 2020, 05:22 PM   #10
A. G. Maisey
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Pamor names, like many other aspects of keris culture, are not standardised, nor are they universal. This is not unique to the keris, but is a characteristic of the extended Javanese culture and society.

Of the two keris that Jean has posted images of, I would give the one on the right as Banyu Tetes:- dripping water; the one on the left I would not attempt to name in a Javanese blade, I would describe it as simply "mlumah", or I might give it as "residual wos wutah", which way I went would depend on what impression I gained with it in my hand.

In Solo, Jawa Tengah every keris literate person I have known has named a pamor that has the "seeds" running in a line down either edge of the blade, as Wiji Timun. During the 1980's and 1990's, probably the most accomplished pande keris in producing this pamor was Yohannes Yantono, who was one of the original Anak-anak ASKI, and was probably the principal teacher of more hopeful and actual keris craftsmen in Central Jawa than any other single person. I do have a rather good example of his work, and I will post an image at my earliest opportunitY.

EDIT

Pande keris Yantono made this keris in the early 1990's, I think around 1993.

The pamor material is Arizona meteorite, I welded the meteor pieces and washed them in preparation for use as pamor material.

The pamor you see here is Pamor Wiji Timun in the typical Central Javanese interpretation.
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Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 30th January 2020 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 30th January 2020, 07:38 AM   #11
Anthony G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Pamor names, like many other aspects of keris culture, are not standardised, nor are they universal. This is not unique to the keris, but is a characteristic of the extended Javanese culture and society.

Of the two keris that Jean has posted images of, I would give the one on the right as Banyu Tetes:- dripping water; the one on the left I would not attempt to name in a Javanese blade, I would describe it as simply "mlumah", or I might give it as "residual wos wutah", which way I went would depend on what impression I gained with it in my hand.

In Solo, Jawa Tengah every keris literate person I have known has named a pamor that has the "seeds" running in a line down either edge of the blade, as Wiji Timun. During the 1980's and 1990's, probably the most accomplished pande keris in producing this pamor was Yohannes Yantono, who was one of the original Anak-anak ASKI, and was probably the principal teacher of more hopeful and actual keris craftsmen in Central Jawa than any other single person. I do have a rather good example of his work, and I will post an image at my earliest opportunitY.

EDIT

Pande keris Yantono made this keris in the early 1990's, I think around 1993.

The pamor material is Arizona meteorite, I welded the meteor pieces and washed them in preparation for use as pamor material.

The pamor you see here is Pamor Wiji Timun in the typical Central Javanese interpretation.


It does looks like mine. Finally I got the name. Thanks Alan........
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Old 30th January 2020, 09:30 AM   #12
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Thank you Alan.
Just for reference, I attach the certificate from the TMII Museum for my blade shown on the left, and the interpretation of pamor Wiji Timun from the Pamoratlas (a recognized reference book in Europe).
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:09 AM   #13
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Interesting Jean.

Perhaps now you might understand the reason why I take very little notice of books.

The names that this most respected publication gives to these illustrated motifs are, I have no doubt absolutely correct.

In Europe.

But regrettably, absolutely incorrect according to the people from whom I learnt, who lived, and in some cases, still live, in Solo Jawa Tengah.

Also, absolutely incorrect according to the gentleman who made this keris.

But really, we should not be too critical about the fact that the people in Solo who made keris with these pamors used different names for them than did the people who have written about them. They had probably never read the books , so they just went on naming these pamors as they had learnt from others before them.

As for the certificate, well I guess its a matter of exactly who we place the most belief in:- makers, or administrators.

Actually, these European sources do not stand alone. I think perhaps Harsrinuksmo might also use names that he sourced from somewhere other than Solo.

I've never seen this "Pamor Atlas", but I have seen the Tammens pamor volume. There is a bit in that doesn't quite fit in with Solo ideas too.

As I think most of us already know:- there is no universal agreement, my background is Solo, Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan, several m'ranggis, several dealers, several other makers who were/are pandes, not empus. I'm happy to stick with my sources, others can select whatever source they wish.

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Old 30th January 2020, 01:03 PM   #14
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Thank you Alan, and I fully agree with you that the names of the kris features vary significantly according to the geographic origin or the people of reference, and my comments were just to demonstrate it.
I checked that Harsinuskmo also shows pamor Wiji Timun as a "row of cuncumber seeds" in the center of the blade (page 532 of the EK) and he may have been the source of reference for other authors like Tammens (vol.2 page 161).
As you correctly pointed out, the pamor pattern on Anthony's blade would be named as Wiji Timun in Java, but not applicable to a supposedly Buginese blade?
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Old 30th January 2020, 06:10 PM   #15
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Interesting discussion on the naming of pamor.
My only contribution here is this photo of a cucumber cut lengthwise. Which of these pamor patterns looks most like the seed pattern as found in the the fruit of the cucumber?
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Old 30th January 2020, 07:04 PM   #16
A. G. Maisey
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I don't know that we can say that it is the universal name in Jawa Jean, but it is certainly the name amongst the people whom I know in Solo --- down the road in Jogja it could well be different.

Yes, the Bugis people could well have an entirely different name again.
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