Kilidj for comment

TVV · 3rd June 2008, 05:52 PM

My friend in Bulgaria, the same person who owns a bunch of nice yataghans, recently obtained this kilidj and asked me to post it here for comments, which I am most happy to oblige. His main question is what would the approximate dating of this piece be? Also, does anyone have any insights into what appears to be a marking?
Thank you,
Teodor

ariel · 4th June 2008, 03:14 AM

Am I seeing a mechanical Damascus pattern?

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 05:14 AM

I also see a mechanical Damascus pattern. The marking on the blade is a crude Turkish Ottoman tughra stamp (a part of it). Similar stamps, but of smaller size, appear on scabbard fittings, and very rare on blades. I also think this sword is a shamshir, as I can not see a well defined yelman. Hard to be sure of exact age - but it's at least 19th Century:-)

eftihis · 4th June 2008, 11:31 AM

Hi, a similar mark is discussed here!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6111

TVV · 4th June 2008, 04:42 PM

Thank you all for the responses. There is a mechanical damascus pattern indeed. I would have never figured out the marking myself. Well, now there are at least two examples stamped with a tughra on the blade. I suppose it would be hard to explain why certain swords carried a tughra on the blade. Could they have belonged to an arsenal, or was it an inspection mark put on blades? Maybe someone has better guesses than mine.
One more question - given the shape of the blade and its pattern, do you think it was a locally (which for the Ottoman Empire encompasses quite a large area) forged one, or imported from somewhere else, such as India?
Again, thank you for your replies.
Teodor

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 05:01 PM

Teodor, the crossguard and hilt particularly look very "Ottomanish". The scabbard fitings as well, so my best guess is that the blade is Ottoman as well, not imported, and not Indian. As for the stamp - my guess is that it was put for decoration purposes (sort of "to impress"). I do not think it is a sign of "quality inspection" or arsenal, or we would know and see more of them.
Also, the original Tugras stamps are usually quite elaborate miniature artwork, and this one is quite large and fairly crude, so I think it was an imitation attempt (this is only my best quess:-)

TVV · 4th June 2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Teodor, the crossguard and hilt particularly look very "Ottomanish". The scabbard fitings as well, so my best guess is that the blade is Ottoman as well, not imported, and not Indian. As for the stamp - my guess is that it was put for decoration purposes (sort of "to impress"). I do not think it is a sign of "quality inspection" or arsenal, or we would know and see more of them.
Also, the original Tugras stamps are usually quite elaborate miniature artwork, and this one is quite large and fairly crude, so I think it was an imitation attempt (this is only my best quess:-)

Thank you Alex, your comments make a ton of sense.

TVV · 24th July 2008, 05:33 PM

Gentlemen,
Here is another sword with Ottoman hilt, which has a marking that also resembles a tughra. The blade is plain, no pattern. I have many questions:
- Is the blade European, or si it just made to resemble a European blade?
- My friend, who has the benefit of having the sword in hand, believes it is dated 1174. I personally do not see a date, just markings perhaps resembling a date. What is your take?

Thank you all for your comments,

Teodor

3rd June 2008, 05:52 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Kilidj for comment My friend in Bulgaria, the same person who owns a bunch of nice yataghans, recently obtained this kilidj and asked me to post it here for comments, which I am most happy to oblige. His main question is what would the approximate dating of this piece be? Also, does anyone have any insights into what appears to be a marking? Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

24th July 2008, 05:33 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Gentlemen, Here is another sword with Ottoman hilt, which has a marking that also resembles a tughra. The blade is plain, no pattern. I have many questions: - Is the blade European, or si it just made to resemble a European blade? - My friend, who has the benefit of having the sword in hand, believes it is dated 1174. I personally do not see a date, just markings perhaps resembling a date. What is your take? Thank you all for your comments, Teodor Attached Images

4th June 2008, 03:14 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Am I seeing a mechanical Damascus pattern?

4th June 2008, 05:14 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I also see a mechanical Damascus pattern. The marking on the blade is a crude Turkish Ottoman tughra stamp (a part of it). Similar stamps, but of smaller size, appear on scabbard fittings, and very rare on blades. I also think this sword is a shamshir, as I can not see a well defined yelman. Hard to be sure of exact age - but it's at least 19th Century:-)

4th June 2008, 11:31 AM	#4
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Hi, a similar mark is discussed here! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6111

4th June 2008, 04:42 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Thank you all for the responses. There is a mechanical damascus pattern indeed. I would have never figured out the marking myself. Well, now there are at least two examples stamped with a tughra on the blade. I suppose it would be hard to explain why certain swords carried a tughra on the blade. Could they have belonged to an arsenal, or was it an inspection mark put on blades? Maybe someone has better guesses than mine. One more question - given the shape of the blade and its pattern, do you think it was a locally (which for the Ottoman Empire encompasses quite a large area) forged one, or imported from somewhere else, such as India? Again, thank you for your replies. Teodor

4th June 2008, 05:01 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Teodor, the crossguard and hilt particularly look very "Ottomanish". The scabbard fitings as well, so my best guess is that the blade is Ottoman as well, not imported, and not Indian. As for the stamp - my guess is that it was put for decoration purposes (sort of "to impress"). I do not think it is a sign of "quality inspection" or arsenal, or we would know and see more of them. Also, the original Tugras stamps are usually quite elaborate miniature artwork, and this one is quite large and fairly crude, so I think it was an imitation attempt (this is only my best quess:-)