Congo scarification knife... which Tribe?

katana · 8th June 2006, 02:37 PM

A scarification knife from the congo, 11.5 cms long, no markings but, I thought a interesting piece. Is scarification still carried out in Tribal communities? Wondered if anyone had any idea as to the Tribal source?

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2006, 07:20 PM

Hi David,

Why do you call this a scarification knife? to me it very non-knife like. There is a thread somewhere, that has pictures of the process. This looks more like a currency unit. I think it is a very nice little item but has nothing to do with scarification. I will see with my limited abilities if I can bring the thread forward.

katana · 8th June 2006, 08:22 PM

Thanks Tim, this item, was sold to me as a scarification knife, I have seen something similar use to scarify tribal members (in Africa) during a documentary.
I do not have the item, as yet, so really cannot comment further. However, once I receive it, handling it may provide further answers.

nechesh · 8th June 2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Hi David,

Why do you call this a scarification knife? to me it very non-knife like. There is a thread somewhere, that has pictures of the process. This looks more like a currency unit. I think it is a very nice little item but has nothing to do with scarification. I will see with my limited abilities if I can bring the thread forward.

Hey Tim, you my well be right as i know little about this, but isn't scarification tradition to several African (as well as Australian aboriginal) cultures. The knife used by different cultures might very well be different, so i'm not sure the pictures in the thread you speak of necessarily knock this example out of the catagory. Knife-like or not, if it is sharp and pointy it can probably do the job.

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2006, 09:36 PM

That may well be the case. I would imagine the process is rather intimate and requires some delicacy and if not precision quick and decisive cuts so looking at the example shown to us it looks more like a butchers tool

.

nechesh · 8th June 2006, 09:46 PM

Did you note that it is only 11.5 cm long? That would make the blade section less than 4 cm. Not really all that large. AFAIK the process is often done by pulling up the flesh with a hook-like implement and then slicing the flesh.

I would say that if this "knife" is sharp enough it could well do the job.

Flavio · 8th June 2006, 10:06 PM

Hello, this is for sure a blade for scarification. Attached is a picture from Fischer/Zirngibl Afrikanishe Waffen were you can see a similar blade like the one of Katana. I have also a book in Italian where there is a very similar example and tomorrow i will post a picture (unfortunatly is only attribuited to Congo in general no tribe, but it was collected in 1907).

katana · 8th June 2006, 10:10 PM

Thats fantastic, thanks for the info. Flavio

, looking forward to seeing the other picture.

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2006, 10:21 PM

Yes I see what you mean. I still see it just a little clumsy compered to the ones I have and the one in the thread mentioned, which all have a curve to the cutting edge, so as to quickly nick the skin, this seems to lack that but it could well be. At 11cm it would not be a high value currency unit but you need small monies as much as large ones. I think the cross section may have some baring on the matter as this is reflected in the more proper weapons of the region. So this strikes me as a miniature representation of them. Just another puzzle from Africa.

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2006, 10:22 PM

Well done Flavio!!

Mapico1 · 9th June 2006, 04:20 PM

Hi,it is a scarification knife also used as razor probably from the Kuba in Kongo.I collect this type of knives and have many.

katana · 9th June 2006, 04:55 PM

Thankyou for the information Mapico, I was told that the Congo was the source of this knife. I appreciate it is difficult to say exactly which tribe this would be associated, but at least the sugestion of the Kuba will help me to find out more information.

Flavio · 9th June 2006, 05:41 PM

Hello guys, here are the pictures. The first shows three scarifications/tatoo blades: the first from right is very similar to the one of Katana (collected by the italian explorer Persano before 1907). The other picture shows some other blades: the first three from left come from the tribe Bikorò (never heard before!) the others come from Kusu. The pictures are taken from book: LAME D'AFRICA (Marco S. Piccardi - Luciano Salvatici).

katana · 9th June 2006, 06:42 PM

Thanks Flavio,

that really is similar, are there any dimensions in the referance book you used?

Flavio · 9th June 2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thanks Flavio,

that really is similar, are there any dimensions in the referance book you used?

Sure, sorry I have forgotten them: the lenght of the one similar to yours is 14,3 cm. The blades in the second picture are between 9,6 cm and 17,8 cm

katana · 9th June 2006, 06:57 PM

Thanks Flavio

Wodimi · 10th June 2006, 06:55 PM

Bikoro is a market town in the Democratic Republic of Congo, lying on Lake Tumba, south of Mbandaka. That means at least the first three knifes comes from the Mongo group.
If we can believe Westerdijk yours come north from this region, possibly from the Ngbandi or Ngbaka.
Attached picture is from Westerdijk: ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika.

Flavio · 10th June 2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah Wodimi, you're right I have forgotten to see on the great book of Westerdijk!!! I'm becoming old!!!!

katana · 11th June 2006, 10:51 AM

Thanks Wodimi, I never thought anyone could tie this knife with a tribe or region.

katana · 17th June 2006, 12:11 PM

Received Knife, sits very well in the hand and with the thumb pressed into the 'thin neck', it gives excellent and accurate control of the blade, not cumbersome at all. 'Butcher's tool' ? maybe for the Lilliputions

8th June 2006, 02:37 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Congo scarification knife... which Tribe? A scarification knife from the congo, 11.5 cms long, no markings but, I thought a interesting piece. Is scarification still carried out in Tribal communities? Wondered if anyone had any idea as to the Tribal source? Attached Images

8th June 2006, 10:06 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello, this is for sure a blade for scarification. Attached is a picture from Fischer/Zirngibl Afrikanishe Waffen were you can see a similar blade like the one of Katana. I have also a book in Italian where there is a very similar example and tomorrow i will post a picture (unfortunatly is only attribuited to Congo in general no tribe, but it was collected in 1907). Attached Images

9th June 2006, 05:41 PM	#13
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello guys, here are the pictures. The first shows three scarifications/tatoo blades: the first from right is very similar to the one of Katana (collected by the italian explorer Persano before 1907). The other picture shows some other blades: the first three from left come from the tribe Bikorò (never heard before!) the others come from Kusu. The pictures are taken from book: LAME D'AFRICA (Marco S. Piccardi - Luciano Salvatici). Attached Images

10th June 2006, 06:55 PM	#17
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Bikoro is a market town in the Democratic Republic of Congo, lying on Lake Tumba, south of Mbandaka. That means at least the first three knifes comes from the Mongo group. If we can believe Westerdijk yours come north from this region, possibly from the Ngbandi or Ngbaka. Attached picture is from Westerdijk: ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika. Attached Images

8th June 2006, 07:20 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hi David, Why do you call this a scarification knife? to me it very non-knife like. There is a thread somewhere, that has pictures of the process. This looks more like a currency unit. I think it is a very nice little item but has nothing to do with scarification. I will see with my limited abilities if I can bring the thread forward.

8th June 2006, 08:22 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Tim, this item, was sold to me as a scarification knife, I have seen something similar use to scarify tribal members (in Africa) during a documentary. I do not have the item, as yet, so really cannot comment further. However, once I receive it, handling it may provide further answers.

8th June 2006, 09:36 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That may well be the case. I would imagine the process is rather intimate and requires some delicacy and if not precision quick and decisive cuts so looking at the example shown to us it looks more like a butchers tool .

8th June 2006, 09:46 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Did you note that it is only 11.5 cm long? That would make the blade section less than 4 cm. Not really all that large. AFAIK the process is often done by pulling up the flesh with a hook-like implement and then slicing the flesh. I would say that if this "knife" is sharp enough it could well do the job.

8th June 2006, 10:10 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thats fantastic, thanks for the info. Flavio , looking forward to seeing the other picture.

8th June 2006, 10:21 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Yes I see what you mean. I still see it just a little clumsy compered to the ones I have and the one in the thread mentioned, which all have a curve to the cutting edge, so as to quickly nick the skin, this seems to lack that but it could well be. At 11cm it would not be a high value currency unit but you need small monies as much as large ones. I think the cross section may have some baring on the matter as this is reflected in the more proper weapons of the region. So this strikes me as a miniature representation of them. Just another puzzle from Africa.

8th June 2006, 10:22 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Well done Flavio!!

9th June 2006, 04:20 PM	#11
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi,it is a scarification knife also used as razor probably from the Kuba in Kongo.I collect this type of knives and have many.

9th June 2006, 04:55 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou for the information Mapico, I was told that the Congo was the source of this knife. I appreciate it is difficult to say exactly which tribe this would be associated, but at least the sugestion of the Kuba will help me to find out more information.

9th June 2006, 06:42 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Flavio, that really is similar, are there any dimensions in the referance book you used?

9th June 2006, 06:57 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Flavio

10th June 2006, 08:25 PM	#18
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Yeah Wodimi, you're right I have forgotten to see on the great book of Westerdijk!!! I'm becoming old!!!!

11th June 2006, 10:51 AM	#19
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Wodimi, I never thought anyone could tie this knife with a tribe or region.

17th June 2006, 12:11 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Received Knife, sits very well in the hand and with the thumb pressed into the 'thin neck', it gives excellent and accurate control of the blade, not cumbersome at all. 'Butcher's tool' ? maybe for the Lilliputions