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Old 19th February 2024, 01:14 PM   #1
Pendita65
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Default Ladrang remodelled?

Hi All,

i was wondering if there are good images of Surakarta or Solo Ladrang warangka that has been altered or remodelled after the Angkup was lost?

Hope to gain some more info as i can't find it on the internet. Or is it common to replace the whole dress of the Keris when a warangka has damage that is beyond restoring it to acceptable apereance?

regards,

Martin
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Old 19th February 2024, 06:42 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Pendita65 View Post
i was wondering if there are good images of Surakarta or Solo Ladrang warangka that has been altered or remodelled after the Angkup was lost?

Hope to gain some more info as i can't find it on the internet. Or is it common to replace the whole dress of the Keris when a warangka has damage that is beyond restoring it to acceptable apereance?
Hello Martin,

Never have seen such an approach, sorry. I have had similar problems before, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=keris+kebo
Like you can see I've given the blade a used and refurbished scabbard.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 19th February 2024, 08:21 PM   #3
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Hi Detlef,

the loss of material at your Ladrang example is huge, i mean when the curved tip is gone broken off. Are there examples of chaninging the ladrang in a less elaborate form. by shaping the front more round or so.

regards, Martin
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Old 19th February 2024, 10:41 PM   #4
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the loss of material at your Ladrang example is huge, i mean when the curved tip is gone broken off. Are there examples of chaninging the ladrang in a less elaborate form. by shaping the front more round or so.
Hi Martin,

I understand correct, like I said, I never have seen such a modification.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 19th February 2024, 11:03 PM   #5
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Hopefully Alan Maisey will tag in because i am pretty sure i remember him talking about such modifications being made to a damaged ladrang in the past. My apologies Alan if i have misremembered this.
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:12 AM   #6
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Are you referring to this thread David?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=repair

See post #25 and #26
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Old 20th February 2024, 06:59 AM   #7
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Thanks David and JustYS,

i read the thread with lot's of interest and the results are very good especially both examples of restoration work. As i was trained as a furniture restorer and worked in the field for several years before becomming a teacher in furniture restoration in Amsterdam i know that a very allmost invisible result can be made depending on the skills of the craftsmen. We had a rule of six feet six inches, what is not noticeable in six feet and it can be seen with six inches distance was an ok job.

My problem is that most of the woods used in the creation of wronko are not available in the Netherlands, so we have to find similar looking woods, and then i only go for the right grain colour can be manipulated dark to light or light stained with dyes to the desired colour.

But i am interested if when the curved tip is gone if there are examples of wronko being carved to a slightly different form to keep the dress presentable. My goal is to visit Indonesia next year and would love to go out to buy different pieces of wood used in Keris and ship it to the Netherlands for future restoration jobs. Have to find out which woods are not on the CITES list as otherwise i will have a lot of problems too.

Thank you for responding to my question and have a nice day.

regards, Martin
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Old 20th February 2024, 11:08 PM   #8
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I'm very pressed for time at the moment, in Bali helping a gentleman from Jakarta. This is not an 8 hour day.

Posts 9 & 10 in this thread might be useful:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kacir
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Old 21st February 2024, 09:21 AM   #9
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I have seen one old Branggah from Yogyakarta without Angkup, which was, so far as I can tell, in its original state. I own one from Pasisir. There is a Balinese form of such Wrongko, and there is a depiction of something lke that on Candi Sukuh.

Till now I have not seen a Solo Landrang without Angkup.
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Old 21st February 2024, 10:43 AM   #10
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Thanks, for trying to give some info. Mr. Maisey and Gustav. I will post a picture of a sheath I canít identify to where it is from it looks different itís the one on the right. The Keris and parts I bought recently.

Last edited by Pendita65; 21st February 2024 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Insert photo in message
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Old 21st February 2024, 07:17 PM   #11
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Are you referring to this thread David?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=repair

See post #25 and #26
Not at all, though that is indeed a magnificent repair job. Alan has given a hint as to what i am talking about, which is cutting down a Ladrang sheath to a Kacir style to remove the damaged areas altogether.
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Old 21st February 2024, 08:15 PM   #12
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Old 23rd February 2024, 08:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Not at all, though that is indeed a magnificent repair job. Alan has given a hint as to what i am talking about, which is cutting down a Ladrang sheath to a Kacir style to remove the damaged areas altogether.
I think i found it, searching for Kacir style and i guess this is how they used to reshape the Warangka.

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435
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Old 23rd February 2024, 01:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pendita65 View Post
I think i found it, searching for Kacir style and i guess this is how they used to reshape the Warangka.

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435
Sorry, I strongly doubt.
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Old 23rd February 2024, 01:33 PM   #15
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Hi Detlef,

why?
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Old 23rd February 2024, 05:17 PM   #16
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Hi Detlef,
why?
Hi Martin,

Because the shown wrongko type is a legitimately wrongko form and not a recarved ladrang form.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 23rd February 2024, 05:28 PM   #17
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Thanks Detlef,

i will keep on searching, I believe they sometimes changed a damaged warangka by just altering the appeareance of the form to keep the dress.

But i might be wrong and think of it from western traditions where broken things where repaired or changed due to the damage or changing taste.
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Old 24th February 2024, 01:44 AM   #18
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In respect of other wrongko forms that lack a defined angkup, whether the sans angkup form is original or is the result of remodeling.

1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images.

2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082

4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435
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Old 24th February 2024, 07:48 AM   #19
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Mr. Maisey,

thank you for the thorough explanation, and yes with my western view i did not think of all the rules in according the wear and use of the Keris in daily life in Java.
I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it?

best wishes, Martin
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Old 24th February 2024, 09:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendita65 View Post
.
I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it?
Hi Martin,

To bring it inside Indonesia won't be the problem but to bring it out again could become maybe a problem. Post Indonesia doesn't ship any blades out from Indonesia.
On the other hand, a friend brought a sword with me to Germany from Indonesia/Bali.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 24th February 2024, 11:36 AM   #21
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Hi Detlef,

does that also count when you go to Indonesia, and let a sarong be made to fit an antique blade so you take it with you home?
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Old 24th February 2024, 12:39 PM   #22
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Does that also count when you go to Indonesia, and let a sarong be made to fit an antique blade so you take it with you home?
I think that the risk is minimal when you have the keris in your luggage, like I said a friend brought me a sword inside his luggage without any problem when he came to Germany.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 24th February 2024, 01:15 PM   #23
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Detlef, since 1966 I have entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai airport in Den Pasar, more than 100 times, and I have entered Indonesia through Jakarta perhaps 10 times.

In 2018 I entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai, I had with me about 20 or 30 keris and other antique edged weapons that I was bringing into Indonesia for restoration.

On my Customs declaration form I declared these keris & other items:- it is required to declare all sharp & or pointed objects, in certain circumstances this declaration can be interpreted as a requirement to declare such things as scissors or pocket knives, even the mini Swiss army knife that is about 2" long.

You must declare, if you do not, your undeclared item can be seized even though it is perfectly legal to own & carry in Indonesia.

OK. In 2018 I declared what I was carrying. I am 80+ years old, I dress as a businessman who is about to attend an important meeting, I speak Bahasa Indonesia fluently and I understand the correct way to behave.

The Customs officers who handled my declaration took me & my luggage into a private office and conducted a cross examination that lasted for around 2 hours. Central to the examination was the fact that I did not have Indonesian/Balinese police clearance to bring weapons into Bali.

However, I did have a NSW police document that permitted me bring edged weapons back into Australia, permitted the Customs officers to look at this document, but I did not permit them to handle it or copy it.

Eventually I was permitted to leave the airport and enter Indonesia.

I have also exited Indonesia on many occasions, sometimes carrying very large numbers of keris & other weapons. On most occasions I have not encountered anything but a cursory examination of what I have had with me, but sometimes the examination has been quite probing in respect of age and/or cultural importance of one or another item carried, on these occasions I have handled the matter in the traditional Indonesian manner.

On two occasions I have been detained & handed over to a highly ranked duty officer who has started our interview by insisting that I return to Jakarta and obtain the relevant export clearance documents. Again, these meetings have been settled in the traditional manner.

Indonesian Customs & other officials must not ever be taken lightly, to do so is to risk making your visit to Indonesia very much longer than you intended it to be, and/or very much more expensive.
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Old 25th February 2024, 06:07 PM   #24
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These posts will be my response to points made in post #18.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post

1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images.
The sheath from Candi Panataran relief is very close, one can say, of the same type, as the sheath of Pagarruyung Keris. I will leave it to viewer's imagination how much exactly this sheath resembles "the form that we now know as Bugis".

I fail to see the close relationship between the sheath forms from Candi Panataran and Candi Sukuh. Candi Sukuh can be interpreted either as Sandhang Walikat or as a Ladrangan, both readings endorsed by A. G. Maisey in these pages at different times. I would interprete the curved back part in Candi Sukuh carving as Godhong, part of Ladrangan sheath, because this Wrongko has carvings known as Widheng Kasatriyan, and I have yet to see a Sandhang Walikat with W K.

I cannot recognize a trace of Angkup in this carving.
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Old 25th February 2024, 06:31 PM   #25
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2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.
There is a Keris from Yogyakarta, presented by Raffles to George IV when Prince Regent in 1813. There are descriptions, which add, it was taken in the loothing of Kraton a year earlier. I was able to see this Keris, and I couldn't see any traces of alterations to the sheath. Everybody acquainted with the shape of a Ladrangan from Yogyakarta - Branggah - will see, that this physically cannot be an alteration of a lost Angkup - because the "lip" of the sheath goes too moch forward for an Yogyakarta style Angkup.

Attached another high quality conventional Branggah image, taken from the same angle.
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Old 25th February 2024, 06:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082
I didn't mean the Sesrengatan form, I mean this one, which is rare, but can be found from Eastern Java till Lombok.
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Old 25th February 2024, 06:43 PM   #27
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4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435
The way how this Pasisir sheath is carved leads me to think, that its front part could be original - the edges, or the "lip" are pointing downwards, at the same time have too much volume at the needed place for a standard Ladrangan with Angkup. Nevertheless, this one could be the only one sheath from all examples I presented (and have seen in person), where I would consider a complete recarving some longer time ago, because patina on all parts of Atasan is genuine.
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Last edited by Gustav; 25th February 2024 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 25th February 2024, 08:02 PM   #28
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Nice photos Gustav.

I will comment on these as soon as I have time, at the moment I'm only a couple of days back from Bali & my inbox is over-flowing with money producing work, so when that is turned into folding stuff I'll post a comment or three.

However, I do have one question, you mention the "Pagaruyung keris", I do not know this keris, do you have a photo?

Pagaruyung is in Sumatera, it is a Minangkabau location.
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Old 25th February 2024, 08:31 PM   #29
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Alan, it is the Keris depicted together with its sheath and the well known dagger. Both were the heirlooms held in Pagarruyung (and still are?).
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Old 25th February 2024, 09:50 PM   #30
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Thanks Gustav, I can see what you mean now, yes, there are similarities between the "Pagaruyung Keris" and the Candi Panataran carving, and there is very little similarity between the Pagaruyung example & the Bugis form.

I will remark that many people who have seen the Candi Panataran example have formed the same opinion as have I about this scabbard, that is, that the Candi Panataran example bears a high degree of similarity to the Bugis scabbard form. Many of these people have formed that opinion without any knowledge of my photographs.

You might see this matter differently, & I have no problem with this.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th February 2024 at 11:36 AM. Reason: correction
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