Java keris thoughts

rasdan · 22nd January 2023, 11:53 PM

Hi Sid, It depends on the level of symmetry, the flow of the curves and the cleanliness of the carving. The photo you provide does not give that view, but I think it is nice enough to be above average.

Now I don't know what real high level kraton carving should like, this is my impression what is nice. Below are 3 cecekan. 1 is new, common and OK and one is village quality, the one with selut is a nicer one - to my eyes. Of course we need to see the hilt as a whole too, but this is just regarding the cecekan carving.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd January 2023, 09:03 PM

Sid, I think I'd go with a Tuban-Mataram classification, ie, tangguh.

The overall form fits, the pamor fits, the gonjo sort of fits.

When we classify with blades that are not really intended to be classified, it always becomes an opinion based on the balance of indicators, in this case, I think Tuban-Mataram fits pretty OK.

SidJ · 24th January 2023, 09:50 AM

Hi Alan
Forgive me but how does Tuban- Mataram relate to the age estimate of circa 1850? Does this mean pre 1850?
Best
Sid

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2023, 10:32 AM

Sid, I always try to be very conservative with age estimates.

I gave my age estimate as pre-1850, not circa 1850.

I based that age estimate on the overall style & appearance of the blade, not upon any blade classification. I was trying to be realistic.

If you want a tangguh belief system estimate of age, well then, Tuban-Mataram means anytime from the beginning of the second kingdom of Mataram through to the 19th century, however, I believe most True Believers in Tangguh infallibility would probably place this blade into pre-1800 at least.

Sid, the Tangguh System is not at all easy to understand, it can assist with age estimates when very high quality blades in very good condition are involved, the nearer we come to the present time, the more those estimates might be accurate, but most of the time with more humble blades, tangguh is a classification based upon style, and that style relates more to geographic point of origin than era.

The True Believers will tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. My own teacher would tell you I'm talking through the top of my head.

Maybe I am.

You make up your own mind.

It all comes down to whether we want an age estimate based upon reality & experience, or if we want an age estimate based upon belief.

Incidentally, Pajajaran is another good possibility, but I'm looking at a screen image, I do not have it in my hand, and I would need it in my hand before I'd place a bet on the Pajajaran horse.

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 03:59 PM

Thanks Alan
I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2023, 07:10 PM

In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit.

That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III.

Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran.

This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa.

However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 09:43 PM

Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?

22nd January 2023, 11:53 PM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Sid, It depends on the level of symmetry, the flow of the curves and the cleanliness of the carving. The photo you provide does not give that view, but I think it is nice enough to be above average. Now I don't know what real high level kraton carving should like, this is my impression what is nice. Below are 3 cecekan. 1 is new, common and OK and one is village quality, the one with selut is a nicer one - to my eyes. Of course we need to see the hilt as a whole too, but this is just regarding the cecekan carving. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 23rd January 2023 at 12:09 AM.

23rd January 2023, 09:03 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Sid, I think I'd go with a Tuban-Mataram classification, ie, tangguh. The overall form fits, the pamor fits, the gonjo sort of fits. When we classify with blades that are not really intended to be classified, it always becomes an opinion based on the balance of indicators, in this case, I think Tuban-Mataram fits pretty OK.

24th January 2023, 09:50 AM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Hi Alan Forgive me but how does Tuban- Mataram relate to the age estimate of circa 1850? Does this mean pre 1850? Best Sid

24th January 2023, 10:32 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Sid, I always try to be very conservative with age estimates. I gave my age estimate as pre-1850, not circa 1850. I based that age estimate on the overall style & appearance of the blade, not upon any blade classification. I was trying to be realistic. If you want a tangguh belief system estimate of age, well then, Tuban-Mataram means anytime from the beginning of the second kingdom of Mataram through to the 19th century, however, I believe most True Believers in Tangguh infallibility would probably place this blade into pre-1800 at least. Sid, the Tangguh System is not at all easy to understand, it can assist with age estimates when very high quality blades in very good condition are involved, the nearer we come to the present time, the more those estimates might be accurate, but most of the time with more humble blades, tangguh is a classification based upon style, and that style relates more to geographic point of origin than era. The True Believers will tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. My own teacher would tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. Maybe I am. You make up your own mind. It all comes down to whether we want an age estimate based upon reality & experience, or if we want an age estimate based upon belief. Incidentally, Pajajaran is another good possibility, but I'm looking at a screen image, I do not have it in my hand, and I would need it in my hand before I'd place a bet on the Pajajaran horse.

25th January 2023, 03:59 PM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Thanks Alan I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

25th January 2023, 07:10 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit. That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III. Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran. This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa. However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

25th January 2023, 09:43 PM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?