African staff,area?

Tim Simmons · 27th December 2004, 06:04 PM

Hello all views.I must start with saying how sad we all feel after the awful events in Asia. Here is a staff, made i would think for a Mr Big in the village.I have post it because one end has a spike so clealy based on a weapon.It is 1.5 m long.I say it may come from central Africa (kuba?) can anyone be more specific.Thanks Tim.

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Freddy · 27th December 2004, 08:20 PM

Although the decoration is geometric, I think it's origin is Ashanti. Some kind of ceremonial staff, but I'm not sure.

It's true that the Kuba use similar decorations, but I don't know if they use these kinds of staffs.

Freddy · 27th December 2004, 08:35 PM

This is a staff I found together with some African weapons. I don't think it's African, but I really don't know. I would be grateful if someone knows more. Could it be South American (Amazon region) ?

The total length is : 115 cm
The top has a width of 4 cm and at the bottom it measures only 2 cm.

This staff is carved all over. It's rather light and weighs only 400 gr.

Freddy · 27th December 2004, 08:40 PM

This one, I know more about. It's an African club from the Tshokwe tribe, living in Congo and Angola. A simple club with some carving at the top.
It came from a collection of weapons once owned by a missionary who lived in the Congo region in the beginning of the 20th century.

A simple, but effective weapon. Heavy enough to do some damage.

Total lenght : 58 cm

tom hyle · 27th December 2004, 10:00 PM

On this last one, note the resemblance to an axe handle.

Freddy · 28th December 2004, 03:41 PM

You're right, Tom. But it lacks the holes needed for fitting the blade.
The decoration goes all round the head of the club and there are no signs that it was meant to be an axe handle.

Tim Simmons · 28th December 2004, 03:54 PM

Hello Freddy, this one is a bit further to the east and the lakes,{Nyamwezi ?}

Freddy · 28th December 2004, 06:25 PM

I think your right, Tim. It's definitively East-African. But are you sure about Nyamwezi ? Could also be Gogo. This tribe has a vast array of clubs.

Here is one that also comes from the same region, but I don't know from which tribe (probably also Gogo).

This is probably some kind of ceremonial club, although it's heavy enough to deliver a painful blow.

A lot is written about African weapons, mostly about the iron work. A good book only dealing with wooden weaponry from Africa would be welcome.

Tim Simmons · 29th December 2004, 11:50 AM

Hi Freddy, this must also be Gogo.More to post latter.Tim

Tim Simmons · 29th December 2004, 07:25 PM

Any thoughts on where this one comes from?Note the finnish on the top.Tim.

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Freddy · 31st December 2004, 03:26 PM

The first one is defintively East-African. Could be Gogo, but one must keep in mind that in that area a lot of tribes use clubs. I have a similar one and mine is attributed (by the seller who goes there every year) to Gogo.

The second one is a puzzle to me. Does it have one face or more. I don't recognize any particular tribe. Nice one, though.

Do you have more pics of this piece ?

I'll put some other pics on the forum next year.

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2005, 10:47 AM

Hi Freddy ,these pictures were meant to show last reply.The club is made of three heads with a male finnish no the top.Whoever made this weapon had been to mission school.I say it may be from around the Uganda/Sudan border areas.Tim

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Freddy · 1st January 2005, 06:30 PM

Your club is still a mystery to me. But that's what makes it fun !

As promised : here are some more Gogo clubs. The variety of forms are amazing. What I particularly like are the small details which sometimes can be found on these weapons. Take, for example, the small carved ridge on the club in the middle.

The one on the left has a thickened handle (why, I don't know ?). If you look at the head of this club, you can distinguish a monkey's head.

The middle one is more for ceremonial use, due to its size.

The third one has a very elegant curve. It really feels good in the hand. A blow delivered with this one would be devastating.

Tim Simmons · 2nd January 2005, 12:04 PM

Hi Freddy, I like those clubs,the monkey one in particular.I would like to continue this topic, but I am having a problem with my PC.I think it is because I am a living in the past and still on dial up.I have a few more pieces I would like to show you.I will try and upload the pics when I get home,I am in a cafe at the moment.Not all the thread pictures are down loading for me at home.Thanks for your contribution.Tim

Tim Simmons · 2nd January 2005, 04:33 PM

This is a very handsome one clearly a status symbol.I have not made up my mind as to its origins.West Africa Benin city or Chokwe? Chokwe only because I have seen the same motifs on masks and other carvings.What do you think?.Tim. Sorry wrong pics,will try again.

Tim Simmons · 3rd January 2005, 01:14 PM

Correct pictures.

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Freddy · 9th January 2005, 06:37 PM

This one a mystery for me, too. Don't know where to place it. Are you sure it's African ?

Here's another one, also a status symbol. The origin is again Gogo (Tanzania). I bought it with this stand, which is a very nice method of displaying African clubs.

The second one, I want to show, is not exactly a club. It's a wooden sword. The origin is Congo. I got some information from a friend who owns a gallery in Brussels and he says it's Kuba. This tribe is known to use wooden weapons on particular days during the month when iron weapons are outlawed. It has something to do with the lunar cycle.
When I first got the sword, I found it resembled the sword of the Bena Lulua, also from Congo.

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2005, 06:25 PM

Very nice Freddy,I would like to post pictures to illustrate my thinking on that last club of mine,it is going to take me a little time.I may start a new thread as this one is taking time to down load.So please keep a look out,also a few other pieces to show you.Thanks Tim.

Tim Simmons · 14th January 2005, 06:56 PM

[IMG]http://[/IMG] Chokwe and Wonga decorative styles,now look at the last club picture I post,rather a coincidence.These motifs would exetend to much greater areas than mentioned but I think clearly Congo.Tim

Freddy · 15th January 2005, 11:20 AM

Tim, your picture didn't come through.

Tim Simmons · 15th January 2005, 02:02 PM

Chokwe and Wonga motifs.These pictures are a little out of context,but I did not want to risk upsetting anyone.

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Tim Simmons · 15th January 2005, 02:15 PM

The other staff is I think from west Africa.I know it is not really a weapon,but it has an origin in the first weapon used by man and a symbol of power ever since.Tim

tom hyle · 15th January 2005, 05:40 PM

Actually though club (lever) is ancient, and knife has been called "our oldest friend" I think that we can safely conclude that the thrown rock is the earliest meaningful human weapon, and it is still employed to some effect by our undomesticated relatives. The throwing arm, evolved from brachiation, is a very meaningful attribute. It is customary to speak of the human as a physically inferior animal reliant on its wits in a world of monsters, but this may be a position somewhat exaggerated by the beliefs of the cultures that espouse it. As for tools, house is probably first. House rocks (if only I could post a picture from "The Flintstones" now......ha ha ha!).

Tim Simmons · 16th January 2005, 05:50 PM

Hi Tom, if you were the boss of an extended family living in a big cave in BedRock, I think a stick would help you keep your kind of order more than a bag of stones..[IMG]http://[/IMG] This is an East African throwing club,not as splendid as the ones from the South Seas.Thanks for your comments Tim.

Tim Simmons · 3rd June 2006, 05:09 PM

The latest member of the family. Freddy if you are watching what do you think, you said you were a stick man? 52cm long. The southern, eastern side of Africa but not South Africa? The pictures do not do it justice.

Freddy · 5th June 2006, 07:35 PM

Hi, Tim.

Don't think it's southafrican. Probably some kind of ceremonial staff. Could well be from East-Africa as you mentioned. But I'm not sure.

27th December 2004, 06:04 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	African staff,area? Hello all views.I must start with saying how sad we all feel after the awful events in Asia. Here is a staff, made i would think for a Mr Big in the village.I have post it because one end has a spike so clealy based on a weapon.It is 1.5 m long.I say it may come from central Africa (kuba?) can anyone be more specific.Thanks Tim. [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

27th December 2004, 08:35 PM	#3
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	a mystery to me This is a staff I found together with some African weapons. I don't think it's African, but I really don't know. I would be grateful if someone knows more. Could it be South American (Amazon region) ? The total length is : 115 cm The top has a width of 4 cm and at the bottom it measures only 2 cm. This staff is carved all over. It's rather light and weighs only 400 gr.

27th December 2004, 08:40 PM	#4
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Another one This one, I know more about. It's an African club from the Tshokwe tribe, living in Congo and Angola. A simple club with some carving at the top. It came from a collection of weapons once owned by a missionary who lived in the Congo region in the beginning of the 20th century. A simple, but effective weapon. Heavy enough to do some damage. Total lenght : 58 cm

28th December 2004, 03:54 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hello Freddy, this one is a bit further to the east and the lakes,{Nyamwezi ?} Attached Images

29th December 2004, 11:50 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hi Freddy, this must also be Gogo.More to post latter.Tim Attached Images

27th December 2004, 08:20 PM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Although the decoration is geometric, I think it's origin is Ashanti. Some kind of ceremonial staff, but I'm not sure. It's true that the Kuba use similar decorations, but I don't know if they use these kinds of staffs.

27th December 2004, 10:00 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	On this last one, note the resemblance to an axe handle.

28th December 2004, 03:41 PM	#6
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	You're right, Tom. But it lacks the holes needed for fitting the blade. The decoration goes all round the head of the club and there are no signs that it was meant to be an axe handle.

28th December 2004, 06:25 PM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I think your right, Tim. It's definitively East-African. But are you sure about Nyamwezi ? Could also be Gogo. This tribe has a vast array of clubs. Here is one that also comes from the same region, but I don't know from which tribe (probably also Gogo). This is probably some kind of ceremonial club, although it's heavy enough to deliver a painful blow. A lot is written about African weapons, mostly about the iron work. A good book only dealing with wooden weaponry from Africa would be welcome.

29th December 2004, 07:25 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Any thoughts on where this one comes from?Note the finnish on the top.Tim. [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

31st December 2004, 03:26 PM	#11
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	The first one is defintively East-African. Could be Gogo, but one must keep in mind that in that area a lot of tribes use clubs. I have a similar one and mine is attributed (by the seller who goes there every year) to Gogo. The second one is a puzzle to me. Does it have one face or more. I don't recognize any particular tribe. Nice one, though. Do you have more pics of this piece ? I'll put some other pics on the forum next year.

1st January 2005, 10:47 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hi Freddy ,these pictures were meant to show last reply.The club is made of three heads with a male finnish no the top.Whoever made this weapon had been to mission school.I say it may be from around the Uganda/Sudan border areas.Tim [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

1st January 2005, 06:30 PM	#13
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Your club is still a mystery to me. But that's what makes it fun ! As promised : here are some more Gogo clubs. The variety of forms are amazing. What I particularly like are the small details which sometimes can be found on these weapons. Take, for example, the small carved ridge on the club in the middle. The one on the left has a thickened handle (why, I don't know ?). If you look at the head of this club, you can distinguish a monkey's head. The middle one is more for ceremonial use, due to its size. The third one has a very elegant curve. It really feels good in the hand. A blow delivered with this one would be devastating.

2nd January 2005, 12:04 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hi Freddy, I like those clubs,the monkey one in particular.I would like to continue this topic, but I am having a problem with my PC.I think it is because I am a living in the past and still on dial up.I have a few more pieces I would like to show you.I will try and upload the pics when I get home,I am in a cafe at the moment.Not all the thread pictures are down loading for me at home.Thanks for your contribution.Tim

2nd January 2005, 04:33 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This is a very handsome one clearly a status symbol.I have not made up my mind as to its origins.West Africa Benin city or Chokwe? Chokwe only because I have seen the same motifs on masks and other carvings.What do you think?.Tim. Sorry wrong pics,will try again. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd January 2005 at 10:56 AM.

3rd January 2005, 01:14 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Correct pictures. [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

9th January 2005, 06:37 PM	#17
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	? ? This one a mystery for me, too. Don't know where to place it. Are you sure it's African ? Here's another one, also a status symbol. The origin is again Gogo (Tanzania). I bought it with this stand, which is a very nice method of displaying African clubs. The second one, I want to show, is not exactly a club. It's a wooden sword. The origin is Congo. I got some information from a friend who owns a gallery in Brussels and he says it's Kuba. This tribe is known to use wooden weapons on particular days during the month when iron weapons are outlawed. It has something to do with the lunar cycle. When I first got the sword, I found it resembled the sword of the Bena Lulua, also from Congo.

11th January 2005, 06:25 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Very nice Freddy,I would like to post pictures to illustrate my thinking on that last club of mine,it is going to take me a little time.I may start a new thread as this one is taking time to down load.So please keep a look out,also a few other pieces to show you.Thanks Tim.

14th January 2005, 06:56 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	[IMG]http://[/IMG] Chokwe and Wonga decorative styles,now look at the last club picture I post,rather a coincidence.These motifs would exetend to much greater areas than mentioned but I think clearly Congo.Tim

15th January 2005, 11:20 AM	#20
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	? Tim, your picture didn't come through.

15th January 2005, 02:02 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Chokwe and Wonga motifs.These pictures are a little out of context,but I did not want to risk upsetting anyone. [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

15th January 2005, 02:15 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The other staff is I think from west Africa.I know it is not really a weapon,but it has an origin in the first weapon used by man and a symbol of power ever since.Tim

15th January 2005, 05:40 PM	#23
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually though club (lever) is ancient, and knife has been called "our oldest friend" I think that we can safely conclude that the thrown rock is the earliest meaningful human weapon, and it is still employed to some effect by our undomesticated relatives. The throwing arm, evolved from brachiation, is a very meaningful attribute. It is customary to speak of the human as a physically inferior animal reliant on its wits in a world of monsters, but this may be a position somewhat exaggerated by the beliefs of the cultures that espouse it. As for tools, house is probably first. House rocks (if only I could post a picture from "The Flintstones" now......ha ha ha!).

16th January 2005, 05:50 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hi Tom, if you were the boss of an extended family living in a big cave in BedRock, I think a stick would help you keep your kind of order more than a bag of stones..[IMG]http://[/IMG] This is an East African throwing club,not as splendid as the ones from the South Seas.Thanks for your comments Tim. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th January 2005 at 09:33 PM.

3rd June 2006, 05:09 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The latest member of the family. Freddy if you are watching what do you think, you said you were a stick man? 52cm long. The southern, eastern side of Africa but not South Africa? The pictures do not do it justice. Attached Images

5th June 2006, 07:35 PM	#26
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Hi, Tim. Don't think it's southafrican. Probably some kind of ceremonial staff. Could well be from East-Africa as you mentioned. But I'm not sure.