Johannes Hoppe Rapier and Dagger

SwordLover79 · 15th March 2023, 01:40 AM

Hello: I read with interest the discussion about German swordsmiths working at Hounslow in the years before and after the English Civil War. I have a 48.5 inch rapier (and matching dagger), with the blade of the rapier marked "JOHANNES HOPPE" in the fullers on both sides. Photos attached. Is this rapier more likely to be from Germany or England? Photos attached. blade length 43 inches. I included photos of the armorer's marks on either side of the blade. Thanks!

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 11:50 AM

Please be aware that I am no expert outside of my primary research which is Shotley Bridge; although inevitably, this extends in either direction to Hounslow and early Birmingham, but only slightly.
I also have few resources of reference beyond the basics… so:
I looked in Bezdek and this seems to be Johannes Hoppe the Elder.
His symbol was The Wildman (see att).
His dates are 1580 - 1645; although they might also be 1570 - 1640.
He does not appear to have ever left Solingen.
I also looked in Norman, and because of that distinctive branching guard and the pommel shape, while neither example was exact - but perhaps near enough, the date, considering Hoppe's life dates, would be ca. 1630 - 35.
Just out of interest, Johannes Hoppe the Younger had a similar symbol (see att) but it is not yours; he was over in England most of his adult life.
Mine is an amateur job and it really needs the attention of an expert; perhaps Jim might take a look.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 11:55 AM

Did you find that sword near you in San Diego?
Do you have any provenance?
It is a very fine rapier... munitions grade of course... but that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

fernando · 15th March 2023, 02:00 PM

What a fine couple, SwordLover

.

fernando · 15th March 2023, 02:13 PM

Keith, are you familiar with Sir James Mann's 'Wallace Collection' work ... page 327 for the case. ?

.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 07:31 PM

Thank-you Fernando; I was not familiar with that document but it more or less says what I had found so my research was probably correct.
Thank-you again, for moving this thread, after we hi-jacked the Pinch of Snuff thread.

Do you think we are looking at a Spanish import into Mexico during the 1600s?

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2023, 07:38 PM

This excellent rapier and dagger ensuite in my view are by the elder Johannes Hoppe (Happe); 1570-1640 and from Solingen. His mark was the so called 'wild man' as termed, and which was later used in degree by his son Johann who was b.1600.
In 1629 the younger Hoppe moved to Greenwich England, and did not go to Hounslow until 1634.

C. Trenchard, in "German Swordsmiths in England" ('Antique Collector' Sept.1934, Vol.V, pp.245-248) states that it is unlikely of course that the elder Hoppe would have gone to England and is known to have died in Solingen in 1640.

While several blades signed by IOHANNES HOPPE are known, those from England are quite rare, with one IOANNES HOPPIE FECIT LONDON ; another form JOANNES HOPPIE ME FECIT HOUNSLOW.
Important is the one JOHANNES HOPPIE 1634 GRENEWICH IN ANGLIA which is on a 'mortuary sword'.

That seems to be the only cases on HOPPIE in England with only the Greenwich having date.

These kinds of 'sets' of rapier/dagger are more likely it seems to be European, aligning with the probability of this being the work of Johannes Hoppe the elder in Solingen.

it is often hard tracking these 'dynasties' of sword makers as they often used the same Christian names from father to son.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 08:10 PM

Hi Jim.
I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work.
Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s.
You seem to be au fait with this area and this period.
Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them.
Regardless... they are a prize possession.

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2023, 10:19 PM

Hi Keith,
Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors.
In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers.

California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s.
Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas.

I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times.

I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier.
It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 10:28 PM

Thanks Jim.

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 01:17 PM

Rapier and dagger show a pair of the Saxon Body Trabant Guard. However, the quality does not speak for production at the Saxon court in Dresden. I assume a production for the guards in Altenburg, Coburg or Gotha. If you want to sell or trade them, I'm very interested.

SwordLover79 · 16th March 2023, 02:45 PM

Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group!
The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you.

A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period?

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:36 PM

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 04:45 PM

The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original.

here pictures from the Dresden armory

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:59 PM

Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/.../lot/id/455923

Your shown dagger is a well-known production from the historicism period

fernando · 16th March 2023, 05:39 PM

Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

It is my personal opinion that the dagger of Swordlover blade and guard are historicism. The rapier I consider to be assembled. The guard is historism and the blade could be original. I have often heard that original blades were used. Similarly as the forger Konrad has done

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:56 PM

https://antiquearmor.com/item/1293sword/

Saxon Arms have always been popular and well forged. there is a dealer in the USA who buys good fakes in Europe and then sells them as originals. I would never buy anything from this dealer

fernando · 16th March 2023, 06:30 PM

I see !

SwordLover79 · 16th March 2023, 10:27 PM

I surely did not purchase this pair from Andrew Garcia! He is quite a character though - as you must know. Andrew just published a new book offering a "collector's course on medieval arms and armor," which features many pieces he has bought and sold over the years. A bit lightweight for you guys!

SwordLover79 · 16th March 2023, 10:46 PM

Merenti: My dagger is indeed similar to the reproduction you referenced. I like to believe that in this case, copying is the highest form of flattery. As you look at my dagger next to your forgery, I'm sure you can tell there are not so subtle differences in the form of the blades, gauge/shape of the quillons and the quality of the wire wrapping/turks heads. If mine is indeed a forgery, the smith did an amazing job matching the gauge of the steel and curvature of the quillons between the sword and the dagger.

urbanspaceman · 17th March 2023, 07:34 PM

I am willing to 'suffer the slings and arrows' here because I am not a collector but an appreciator.
Not only would I not hesitate (no double negative) to enthusiastically possess this pair, but I would enjoy them dearly hanging on my wall.
They are impressive indeed.
Of course, I am the type who attempts to restore stuff to showroom quality because I feel the man who made it would not be happy to see it distressed. Many of you may think I am beyond the pale.
That is a splendid blade from an exceptional smith... well logged into Solingen history.
I suspect it is quite a unique exhibit down in SD... how is the arms and armour world down there?

fernando · 17th March 2023, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

...I am willing to 'suffer the slings and arrows' here because I am not a collector but an appreciator...

Collecting alone doesn't give knowledge; could be just gathering. Interest does, so as curiosity

.

SwordLover79 · 17th March 2023, 11:20 PM

The arms collecting hobby is actually quite vibrant in the Southwestern US as best I can tell. Probably more so in Los Angeles than the San Diego area. The annual antique arms and armor show in Las Vegas this January was fairly robust, though not as well attended as shows prior to Covid. Each year some nice pieces come out of hiding...

urbanspaceman · 18th March 2023, 01:00 PM

Thank-you for your response.

15th March 2023, 01:40 AM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Johannes Hoppe Hello: I read with interest the discussion about German swordsmiths working at Hounslow in the years before and after the English Civil War. I have a 48.5 inch rapier (and matching dagger), with the blade of the rapier marked "JOHANNES HOPPE" in the fullers on both sides. Photos attached. Is this rapier more likely to be from Germany or England? Photos attached. blade length 43 inches. I included photos of the armorer's marks on either side of the blade. Thanks! Attached Images

15th March 2023, 11:50 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	Johannes Hoppe the Elder Please be aware that I am no expert outside of my primary research which is Shotley Bridge; although inevitably, this extends in either direction to Hounslow and early Birmingham, but only slightly. I also have few resources of reference beyond the basics… so: I looked in Bezdek and this seems to be Johannes Hoppe the Elder. His symbol was The Wildman (see att). His dates are 1580 - 1645; although they might also be 1570 - 1640. He does not appear to have ever left Solingen. I also looked in Norman, and because of that distinctive branching guard and the pommel shape, while neither example was exact - but perhaps near enough, the date, considering Hoppe's life dates, would be ca. 1630 - 35. Just out of interest, Johannes Hoppe the Younger had a similar symbol (see att) but it is not yours; he was over in England most of his adult life. Mine is an amateur job and it really needs the attention of an expert; perhaps Jim might take a look. Attached Images

15th March 2023, 11:55 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	ps Did you find that sword near you in San Diego? Do you have any provenance? It is a very fine rapier... munitions grade of course... but that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

15th March 2023, 02:13 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hoppe/Happe/Hoppie Keith, are you familiar with Sir James Mann's 'Wallace Collection' work ... page 327 for the case. ? . Attached Images

15th March 2023, 07:31 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	two thanks to Fernando. Thank-you Fernando; I was not familiar with that document but it more or less says what I had found so my research was probably correct. Thank-you again, for moving this thread, after we hi-jacked the Pinch of Snuff thread. Do you think we are looking at a Spanish import into Mexico during the 1600s?

15th March 2023, 02:00 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	What a fine couple, SwordLover .

15th March 2023, 07:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	This excellent rapier and dagger ensuite in my view are by the elder Johannes Hoppe (Happe); 1570-1640 and from Solingen. His mark was the so called 'wild man' as termed, and which was later used in degree by his son Johann who was b.1600. In 1629 the younger Hoppe moved to Greenwich England, and did not go to Hounslow until 1634. C. Trenchard, in "German Swordsmiths in England" ('Antique Collector' Sept.1934, Vol.V, pp.245-248) states that it is unlikely of course that the elder Hoppe would have gone to England and is known to have died in Solingen in 1640. While several blades signed by IOHANNES HOPPE are known, those from England are quite rare, with one IOANNES HOPPIE FECIT LONDON ; another form JOANNES HOPPIE ME FECIT HOUNSLOW. Important is the one JOHANNES HOPPIE 1634 GRENEWICH IN ANGLIA which is on a 'mortuary sword'. That seems to be the only cases on HOPPIE in England with only the Greenwich having date. These kinds of 'sets' of rapier/dagger are more likely it seems to be European, aligning with the probability of this being the work of Johannes Hoppe the elder in Solingen. it is often hard tracking these 'dynasties' of sword makers as they often used the same Christian names from father to son.

15th March 2023, 08:10 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	misleading comment Hi Jim. I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work. Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s. You seem to be au fait with this area and this period. Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them. Regardless... they are a prize possession.

15th March 2023, 10:19 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Keith, Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors. In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers. California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s. Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas. I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times. I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier. It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.

15th March 2023, 10:28 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	Response Thanks Jim.

16th March 2023, 01:17 PM	#11
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 62	Rapier and dagger show a pair of the Saxon Body Trabant Guard. However, the quality does not speak for production at the Saxon court in Dresden. I assume a production for the guards in Altenburg, Coburg or Gotha. If you want to sell or trade them, I'm very interested.

16th March 2023, 02:45 PM	#12
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Johannes Hoppe Rapier Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group! The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you. A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period? Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:36 PM	#13
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards. Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country. And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived. . Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:45 PM	#14
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 62	The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original. here pictures from the Dresden armory Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:59 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

16th March 2023, 05:39 PM	#17
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

16th March 2023, 05:56 PM	#19
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 62	https://antiquearmor.com/item/1293sword/ Saxon Arms have always been popular and well forged. there is a dealer in the USA who buys good fakes in Europe and then sells them as originals. I would never buy anything from this dealer

16th March 2023, 06:30 PM	#20
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	I see !

16th March 2023, 10:27 PM	#21
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I surely did not purchase this pair from Andrew Garcia! He is quite a character though - as you must know. Andrew just published a new book offering a "collector's course on medieval arms and armor," which features many pieces he has bought and sold over the years. A bit lightweight for you guys!

16th March 2023, 10:46 PM	#22
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Merenti: My dagger is indeed similar to the reproduction you referenced. I like to believe that in this case, copying is the highest form of flattery. As you look at my dagger next to your forgery, I'm sure you can tell there are not so subtle differences in the form of the blades, gauge/shape of the quillons and the quality of the wire wrapping/turks heads. If mine is indeed a forgery, the smith did an amazing job matching the gauge of the steel and curvature of the quillons between the sword and the dagger.

17th March 2023, 07:34 PM	#23
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	Fabulous fakery I am willing to 'suffer the slings and arrows' here because I am not a collector but an appreciator. Not only would I not hesitate (no double negative) to enthusiastically possess this pair, but I would enjoy them dearly hanging on my wall. They are impressive indeed. Of course, I am the type who attempts to restore stuff to showroom quality because I feel the man who made it would not be happy to see it distressed. Many of you may think I am beyond the pale. That is a splendid blade from an exceptional smith... well logged into Solingen history. I suspect it is quite a unique exhibit down in SD... how is the arms and armour world down there?

17th March 2023, 11:20 PM	#25
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	The arms collecting hobby is actually quite vibrant in the Southwestern US as best I can tell. Probably more so in Los Angeles than the San Diego area. The annual antique arms and armor show in Las Vegas this January was fairly robust, though not as well attended as shows prior to Covid. Each year some nice pieces come out of hiding...

18th March 2023, 01:00 PM	#26
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 493	SW area arms collecting Thank-you for your response.