Austrian Zischägge/lobsterpot helmet

[Victrix]

When I tried the helmet on I discovered that the ”nasal bar” cannot be lowered vertically as the nose is in the way. The helmet is probably a bit small for me (190cm tall) but still I struggle to see how these can be used for nasal protection. It seems to me they are for decoration in Indo-Persian style. Some English civil war lobstertail pot helmets have face guards but they are attached more towards the edges of the pointed peak and not flush with the forehead.

[Lansquenet59]

The nasal protection bar was useful to protect the face from a sword blow from an opposing rider. Unless you have a very large nose, this bar should not interfere with the wearer of this helmet.

[fernando]

Prety cool piece. Do the back lames articulate ?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Prety cool piece. Do the back lames articulate ?

Thank you, Fernando.

The tail consists of lames which are riveted one plate to another. This allows for only a little movement between plates. The plates don’t compress (collapse into each other). I don’t think I ever saw a Zischagge where the plates compressed in such a manner, although the design suggests that this would be the case. On the other hand there is not much need for this since the objective is to protect the neck.

[Raf]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Thank you, Fernando.

The tail consists of lames which are riveted one plate to another. This allows for only a little movement between plates. The plates don’t compress (collapse into each other). I don’t think I ever saw a Zischagge where the plates compressed in such a manner, although the design suggests that this would be the case. On the other hand there is not much need for this since the objective is to protect the neck.

The vendor of a similar helmet provides the following explantation

Type used in the Thirty Years' War and again in the English Civil Wars. This example with distinct evidence of that double service. Form commonly referred to as "Dutch" with ribbed one piece skull, rolled edge visor and cheek pieces, sliding nasal bar and four lame neck guard. Sound and complete with fragmentary line bands. The tail with the center leather secured by domed rivets which pierce the double plate overlap and immobilize the articulation of the neck protection. That modification clearly made during the working life of the helmet and the leather, rivets and gussets showing commensurate age. It is well established that large numbers of lobstertail helmets used in the English Civil Wars of 1642-51 were Thirty Years' War surplus. They were used by Parliamentarians who, unlike the King, had few sources of domestic origin. "Pot helmets" of the period were made with both articulated and non-articulated neck defenses. Both had their proponents and arguments. This helmet, likely as part of a group purchase was modified to respond to the difference in warfare between the two conflicts. Specifically, the Thirty Years' War was a war of sieges while the English Civil Wars were fought in the fields.

Anyone convinced ?

[fernando]

Sounds fine to me, Raf. I was hesitating to propose a high end version in that the back lames were articulated, and you came with a fair enlightening.

[Lansquenet59]

Let us not forget that at the time, the men were shorter than today, rare were the people reaching 1m80. Besides when we compare the many breastplates, we can see that they were not big. So I think this helmet was well suited to whoever needed to wear it. And that the nasal bar was also functional, because otherwise they would not have bothered to have a sliding system. That was coming down to the bottom just before going into combat.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

The vendor of a similar helmet provides the following explantation

Type used in the Thirty Years' War and again in the English Civil Wars. This example with distinct evidence of that double service. Form commonly referred to as "Dutch" with ribbed one piece skull, rolled edge visor and cheek pieces, sliding nasal bar and four lame neck guard. Sound and complete with fragmentary line bands. The tail with the center leather secured by domed rivets which pierce the double plate overlap and immobilize the articulation of the neck protection. That modification clearly made during the working life of the helmet and the leather, rivets and gussets showing commensurate age. It is well established that large numbers of lobstertail helmets used in the English Civil Wars of 1642-51 were Thirty Years' War surplus. They were used by Parliamentarians who, unlike the King, had few sources of domestic origin. "Pot helmets" of the period were made with both articulated and non-articulated neck defenses. Both had their proponents and arguments. This helmet, likely as part of a group purchase was modified to respond to the difference in warfare between the two conflicts. Specifically, the Thirty Years' War was a war of sieges while the English Civil Wars were fought in the fields.

Anyone convinced ?

I take vendor comments with a pinch of salt, but like to be openminded and keen to enlighten myself.

As far as I’m aware all Zischägge I have seen with laminated neck guards had their plates riveted together where overlapping, which limit the possible movement. This is not a problem as I struggle to see why you would want a fully articulated neck guard as this is not a joint.

Some Zischägge have leather straps attached with rivets around the sides and through the middle of the laminated neck guard. I think this is generally believed to have held the lining in place, but I guess it could also have enabled full articulation of the laminated neck guard if the lames were originally only riveted to the leather straps and not each other. But I’m not convinced unless someone can show this was the case.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...As far as I’m aware all Zischägge I have seen with laminated neck guards had their plates riveted together where overlapping, which limit the possible movement. This is not a problem as I struggle to see why you would want a fully articulated neck guard as this is not a joint...

Some say this is an option to make a difference between wealthy or ranked owners and ordinary troopers equipment. I have even seen (here ?) a neck guard in one entire piece but with pronounced canelures, "possibly" to visually pretend articulated features

Originally Posted by Victrix

...Some Zischägge have leather straps attached with rivets around the sides and through the middle of the laminated neck guard. I think this is generally believed to have held the lining in place, but I guess it could also have enabled full articulation of the laminated neck guard if the lames were originally only riveted to the leather straps and not each other. But I’m not convinced unless someone can show this was the case...

Maybe i am talking nonsense but, allow me to show the lower neck guard of a close helmet, just for the sake of how the lames do articulate; not so much, but they do articulate indeed, as i have personally checked. The side rivets are 'spaced' to allow for pivoting of the leather controlled center .


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[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Lansquenet59

The nasal protection bar was useful to protect the face from a sword blow from an opposing rider. Unless you have a very large nose, this bar should not interfere with the wearer of this helmet.

Originally Posted by fernando

Could it be that the bar, or its holding bracket, was bent inwards due to a fall, or been hit by some accidental (or not) blow ? Have you thought of bending it out a little ?
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I’m a tall person and the helmet is probably a little small. When I tilted it back a little I could lower the bar to cover the bridge of my nose at least. I have been unable to locate any contemporary graphic material which shows wearers with the nasal guard down. I think it may be more decorative than functional. If the front of the helmet is flush with your forehead then it becomes technically difficult to slide down the bar to cover the nose unless pugfaced.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...When I tried the helmet on I discovered that the ”nasal bar” cannot be lowered vertically as the nose is in the way...

Could it be that the bar, or its holding bracket, was bent inwards due to a fall, or been hit by some accidental (or not) blow ? Have you thought of bending it out a little ?


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