Police Truncheons

[son of oaf]

Hi
I'm trying to research the classic vintage British Police Truncheon.
Made of Lignum Vitae.
I've been trying to find out standard clasifications, sizes and weights (if there were such things) and to find decent quality images...
Can anyne help with reference?
thanks in advance

Andy

[Gavin Nugent]

G'day Andy,

If I saw this posted 3 weeks ago I could have pointed you to a great auction in the UK with a few of these examples in it amongst about 60 other antique police truncheons. I don't buy them but still come across them, I'll send you a PM when I next see one.
Apart from that, I know the Brisbane police head quarters has a museum has examples of old trucheons and restricted weapons on display, have you tried police museums in larger citys in England?
Another suggestion that I have found very useful over the years is email larger museums too, they can provide a inventory list by email, you can then indicate which ones you would like to view, the curators are always very helpful and for the most part can arrange with some notice the oppurtunity to visit behind the scenes and handle inventory never seen on display. This will give you a chance to measure weigh and photograph all that you need.

regards

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andy,
Now here is yet another intriguing and extremely esoteric sector of arms! the truncheon (aka billy club, baton, nightstick ) and I think Gav's advice is most well placed. Most police departments seem to have varying collections and groupings of memoribilia, including these weapons.

When I saw your post I recalled I had seen something on these long ago, and found in "Arms and Armor Annual" (ed. Robert Held, 1979) an article by Frederick Wilkinson, "William Parker and Parker Field, Gunmakers" (pp.275-282). While this title suggests guns, it includes certain other notes as these makers were major suppliers to the Constabulary in the 19th century. There are two truncheons specified on p.282:
1. truncheon of a Hatton Garden police officer, which is black with gold lettering, base of the grip stamped 'PARKER HOLBORN'. Length: 20.5"
2. truncheon of Metropolitan Police, finely painted with royal arms,
overall length: 12.5"
* it is noted this shorter type was carried by inspectors and plain
clothes detectives.
John Field, the partner, proposed in innovation idea for the leather case in which the truncheon carried attached to the belt until the 1860's. He put a leather covered spring in the bottom, which ejected the truncheon when the flap was opened, a 'quick draw truncheon' !!

Apparantly on late 19th century to early 20th c. the upper part of the stick was stamped with crown atop the letters 'CP' (=city police), often lower near the grip was a three digit badge number. Divisional letters were not used until after 1910.
The term 'billy club' was used about mid 19th century, with numerous ideas about its etymology. Some say it is actually 'bully' club, as British police were called by this term, one reference even suggests the Shakespearean term 'billets' used in context of beating ones brains out with billets. As is often the case, the true origin remains unclear.
In the 19th century, the Special Constable (SC) often was called in to assist regular officers, and these individuals often fashioned thier own sticks in the style of the regular form, and personally had them colorfully painted with arms etc. Other markings that might be found are SSD (= special or section sergeant and D= division) for example.

It seems many are painted black (a dated example from 1842, with narrow handle and leather lanyard is black with gold crown and VR cypher).
A British truncheon from 1930's is noted of lignum vitae (ironwood) as noted, but it is unclear from what I could find how commonly or how long this estremely hard wood was used. It is noted that these truncheons were about 1 1/4" in diameter and from 18 to 36" long. The longer ones were said to be called 'riot batons'.
Another note points out that red examples were traffic batons.

Just notes I could find online and in that article cited. It would be interesting to see some posts of examples of these, and as noted, some of the varying specifications.

Thank you for the interesting post!
All best regards,
Jim

[son of oaf]

thanks gents,
That's great.
I'm going to Leeds Armories next weekend to try and get permission to get a good look at the one in there collection.
From what i remember it's pretty cool.
I'm doing some digging to see if there is anywhere else in the UK i can try.
The more i look into this the more interested i become....

[Jim McDougall]

Sounds great Son ! It really is an interesting subject, and in all honesty, one I had never thought much on.....I like to see focus on any topic and learn as much as possible. Keep us posted OK?

Best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Hello Son!

No, this isn't your dad...
(But I might fit the description!....)
Am living in western Canada now, but used to live near Middlesbrough, and years and years ago, I saw the biggest display ever of truncheons at the museum in York.
I'm pretty sure it was York and the display was indeed huge, and ran from the Bowstreet runners 'clubs' up to modern times...(well, late 60's as it was at the time)
There were many as Jim has already described, but many earlier ones were rather horrific!
some were like a chair leg. (Might have been!) turned round where it was gripped, and dead square on the 'working end. Would really send the skin and hair flying!
Others were made from plaited rawhide, with a maybe an inch-and a half lead ball wrapped in the working bit....more like a small-headed indian war club.

Some appeared to be equally the results of spare time, and a fertile imagination, with the bottom line of being intended to Really Hurt, or put the lights out Very quickly.
I was imressed.
We did have one, belonged to an old relative. It was his dads.
It was approx. 18" long, turned handle, with turned ring at the end of the grip, for traction, the rest was straight sided, maybe 1 1/2" in diameter, with a hole bored down the centre and filled with a plug of lead.
Also had a leather loop for the wrist.

All the best Son!

Richard.

[son of oaf]

Hi Folks!
Thanks for all the great feedback.

I've been doing some digging and had a great time talking to the curator at Leeds Armouries who told me about a book called "Those Entrusted With Arms"which goes into some detail about the old Lignum Vitae truncheons.
I ended up buying a copy from Amazon for around $12.

I also visited Leeds Armouries and took a few photos while i was there
I slapped them on my Flickr page if anyone's interested
http://flickr.com/photos/rem0
I used a Cold Steel Sharkie pen as a size guide as i always have one in my pocket. It's about the size of a bog standard permanent marker.

I wish i could've taken photos of everything at the armouries, it's an amazing place (especially the Hall of Steel).
I plan to go back there soon researching Duelling pistols and swords as well as Filipino weapons (another pet project or two )

If anyone in the UK sees any truncheons up for auction please give me a heads up...i'm totally fscinated now...

Thanks again
Great community
all the best and happy new year

Andy

[VANDOO]

JIMMY MANTERIS HAS A VERY NICE COLLECTION OF THESE AND QUITE A BIT OF REFRENCE AND INFORMATION ON THEM. NEXT TIME I TALK TO HIM I WILL SEE IF HE CAN POST SOME REFRENCES OR INFO.
THIS TYPE OF WEAPON WAS ALSO USED A LOT BY THE PRESS GANGS WHO WOULD KONK AND DRAG OFF ANYONE THEY COULD FIND TO SERVE IN THE NAVY. MANY A FAMILY SUFFERED THE HARDSHIP OF LOSEING A FATHER OR SON TO THE PRESS GANGS AND AMERICA FOUGHT A WAR OVER OUR SHIPS BEING STOPPED AND OUR SAILORS BEING PRESSED INTO THEIR NAVY.
SOME OF THESE CLUBS WERE HOLLOWED OUT AND LEAD FILLED TO ADD MORE WEIGHT AND STRIKE HARDER MANY ALSO HAD A LEATHER COVERING TO KEEP IT FROM SPLITTING. THERE ARE ALSO SIMULAR POLICE CLUBS THAT WERE USED IN AMERICA I HAVE ONE AROUND SOMEWHERE THAT WAS USED IN NEW YORK IN THE 1920'S

[Pukka Bundook]

Vandoo,

Police club....this is a perfect description of some of them!

I must take the time to see if anything will come up on the collection in York.

R.

[son of oaf]

Pukka,

I must've missed a beat...
is there a collection in York?!
I'm actually visiting York next weekend and it'd be good to look this stuff up...
amazing coincidence
whereabouts is it?

thanks in advance

Oaf

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Son,
Ive sent a PM back to you.

I Think the display was in the museum in York, but it's been 25 yrs since we came to Canada, and probably ten yrs before that when I looked at the collection....so the details are getting fuzzy.
We'll see what I can find out.

Richard.

Just googled Truncheon collection, York, and a line or two turned up.;

.."York posseses a noted folk museum, based on large collection....Constable truncheons,....... fireplace fittings..." etc etc.
Hope this might help.

Had another look, & e-mailed York castle museum...seems the most likely spot.
Even if they don't have the truncheons, they have a fantastic weapons display!
R

R.

[son of oaf]

Pukka you are a legend!
We are travelling to York next Saturday...
I'll do some digging and see if i can't find some truncheons!
thank you so much for your help
wooooop!

Oaf

[Pukka Bundook]

Well Son, I've been called a lot of things,...but legend ain't one of 'em 'til now!

I hope it works out for you.

"legend" (R)

[Pukka Bundook]

Just got this email from Michelle;










Dear Mr Hare,

Thank you for your e-mail and for your enquiry regarding the truncheons. We do still have the collection of truncheons here at York Castle Museum. Although there are very few on display now, the collection is retained in one of our stores.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Michelle Petyt

_________________________________________________

Michelle Petyt
Assistant Curator of Social History


York Museums Trust
York Castle Museum
The Eye of York
York
YO1 9RY



Telephone: +44 (0)1904 650332
Fax: +44 (0)1904 671078
Web: www.yorkmuseumstrust.org.uk

If you talk to her, you may be able to make arrangements to see the whole collection.

all the best,

Richard.

[Atlantia]

Sorry saw this and couldn't resist adding it to this discussion of Truncheons



Don't you wish there was sound with it?

[Pukka Bundook]

Atlantia,

I'm beginning to wonder if everyone is too politically 'correct' these days!

I think this is one of the funniest things I've seen in ages!
I saw it yesterday, and still can't get the smile off my face!!

The dude playing the fool was obviously warned.....took no notice, .....and reaped the consequences......Just as it Should be!

Thanks for showing it.

(My daughter was nearly sick laughing at this!)

[Atlantia]

Thanks Pukka,

It is awful I know! but soo funny.
I would love to hear the one sided conversation that led to that.

Do you think the Mime broke his vow of silence when clouted? He 'mimes' ouch very well!

Edit: Gotta add one more! This one always makes me grin!

Sorry I know its well off topic, won't do it again.

[Rick]

Whatzit ?
At first I thought it was a fish billy until I noticed the impressive weight and the drilled ends ..

[VANDOO]

LOOKS LIKE A HOMEMADE BILLY CLUB TO ME. THE WOOD LOOKS LIKE IT MIGHT BE WEATHERED HICKORY , A HARD WOOD FAVORED IN NORTH AMERICA FOR AX HANDLES AND OTHER HANDLES AND ITEMS. IT IS PROBABLY FILLED WITH LEAD FOR EXTRA WEIGHT. THESE WERE OFTEN KEPT BY BARTENDERS, OR UNDER THE SEAT BY TRUCKERS AND ON FISHING BOATS WHERE THEY WERE HANDY FOR SUBDUING THE TROUBLESOME LARGE FISH OR EEL.
I SUSPECT THERE WERE REGULATIONS ON SIZE, WEIGHT AND DESIGN FOR POLICE OR BOBBY'S CLUBS AND I SUSPECT THIS ONE WOULD BREAK A FEW OF THOSE REGULATIONS. DEFINITELY A NICE BONKER THAT I WOULD NOT CARE TO BE CARESSED WITH.

[Atlantia]

I think it looks like an old School Rounders bat (kids one).

Are the drill marks just where its been lathe turned?

[Rick]

No, they are plugs .
This is unnaturally heavy for its size .