Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th January 2015, 07:23 AM   #61
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Hello Detlef, I really like these knives and though not antique they are very interesting. Because of the good workmanship, nice form and the fact that it's so unique I had even put a modest bid on this when I first saw it, but I was quickly outbid. At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection. I agree with Rick when he said: "wouldn't this make a great visual deterrent to a potential attacker when seen from twenty feet away, or across a room ." I think that this would be especially true if the room wasn't well lit. I am looking forward to it arriving to see just how well made it actually is. Again, my congratulations to you for winning this most interesting piece.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2015, 09:47 AM   #62
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Here some pictures which show from up to down a.: the fit now inside the scabbard, b.: like it is normally (no perfect fit), and c.: a close up from this
i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2015, 09:07 PM   #63
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection.
Hello Robert,

thank you for your kind words! When I look to the both side by side I tend to say that I like my one more, the mother of pearl inlays at the handle scales are very nice IMHO and the engravings on the blade are also very nice.
Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2015, 09:17 PM   #64
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.
Hi Kronckew,

I understand what you meant but read again #56 what Jose has written. And when you would turn the handle by 180 degree the look inside scabbard will be unusual as well, see attached picture. And when I understand Jose correct it wasn't possible.

Best regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 12:06 AM   #65
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

It should be noted that the bend of the pommel does NOT always flow in the same direction on all gunongs. The ivory gunong on the left is a straight single edged variety. The one on the right is a wavy blade. Neither of these blades fit the sheath in the reverse direction so this is how they were made. I suppose it is possible that these differ do to righthand/lefthand preferences.
Regarding Wayne's comments on point direction, the wavy one does indeed have the direction of the point bending to the same side as the bend of the hilt, though i am always hesitant to claim "wrong" or "correct" when it comes to these daggers as i do not believe we really know enough about them to make such definitive statements. Just as the pommels don't always bend to the same side i am open to the concept that the point of the wavy dagger might also vary from time to time.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 12:44 AM   #66
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

One thing to remember is that the tangs on these are usually curved to follow the curve of the tang socket in the hilt. The tang on this dagger is curved in the opposite direction of the point of the blade unlike all of the ones that I have personally seen where the curve of the tang is curved in the same direction as that of the point of the blade. The tang will only fit properly into the socket in one direction unless you modify either the tang socket or the tang itself. I would suggest that this might have been ordered this way by the original owner. If being used in close quarters (with an upward stabbing motion say to the stomach area) having the blades point facing upwards might help in making it easier for the blade penetrate both cloth and flesh alike. JTOL

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 12:46 AM   #67
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

ithink i am having trouble explaining my comments. they had nothing to do with the scabard, the scabbard fit is a red herring. it only was about the point of the blade pointing down when held with the bend held in the grip/pommel in your palm in normal fashion.

whichever way the grip is attached to the blade, it will only fit the scabbard one way. the grip when detached from the blade, as in a keris, can be reattached pointing willy-nilly in any direction, restrained by it's geometry of course.

a square gunong tang with a square hole in the grip would only allow 4 directions, two of which would point the pommel away from the flat left or right side if the blade, and would be highly unusual orientations. the other two orientations place the pommel the same direction as the edges, the more usual of which is to present the last luk at the point towards the ground. the tip is thus below the centerline perpendicular to the guard.

i cannot find an image of one (or of a kris or keris) where it does not other than the one presented initially here which i believed to be an artefact of it's reassembly when it was restored by jose.

if it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 27th January 2015 at 01:27 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 02:10 AM   #68
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Quote:
f it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.
Kronckew, I most likely have not seen as many of these disassembled as you have, but on everyone I have handled personally the blades tang would only fit into the hilt one way (where everything, blade, guard and hilt lined up properly) unless being forced. Here is a link to a gunong that I restored: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong You will see that just like the blade on the one Jose restored that there is a slight curve in the tang (opposite direction from Detlefs) and that the tang socket in the hilt itself looks to be mostly round (again like the one we are discussing) but the tang would only fit into the socket one way where everything would line up properly. As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 08:17 AM   #69
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

'nuff said. as i mentioned earlier, as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway. my OCD is not important.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 04:38 PM   #70
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.
Agree here with Robert and think that Jose have enough knowledge that when it has been possible that he would has attached the pommel in the "correct" direction. Like said before, I have had the same thoughts like Wayne when I have received the gunong from Jose. But he assured that it was only possible like he has done it.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 05:08 PM   #71
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway.
Wayne, he is! I am sure that Jose has given the best.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2015, 11:53 PM   #72
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

Actually I tried the other way regarding the handle and tang. Didn't work: the best fit is the present one. Thus a truly unique piece indeed! (And I'm glad you're happy! )
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2015, 06:19 PM   #73
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Actually I tried the other way regarding the handle and tang. Didn't work: the best fit is the present one. Thus a truly unique piece indeed! (And I'm glad you're happy! )

Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2015, 04:32 PM   #74
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Finally I have received the pistol gunong. Well made blade with subtle lamination. Scabbard shows a lot of wear so I am sure that it was in use for some time. Here some just taken pictures after the piece has received some maintenance. Like said before, not antique but an interesting ethnograhic dagger with good age.
Attached Images
     
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2015, 04:42 PM   #75
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Here together with it's new friends at my Moro display.
Attached Images
 
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2015, 08:38 PM   #76
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Hello Detlef, I am very happy to see that this dagger has finally been released and is now in your possession. As I have previously had the opportunity to personally handle this dagger I can attest to how well it is made. Even if it is not of a great age I would be quite happy to have one like it myself. My congratulations to you for being able to add this very interesting and unusual dagger to your collection.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2015, 09:05 PM   #77
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Hello Detlef, I am very happy to see that this dagger has finally been released and is now in your possession. As I have previously had the opportunity to personally handle this dagger I can attest to how well it is made. Even if it is not of a great age I would be quite happy to have one like it myself. My congratulations to you for being able to add this very interesting and unusual dagger to your collection.

Best,
Robert
Hello Robert,
thank you for your kind words and your help that I can acquire this piece.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2015, 01:00 AM   #78
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Thumbs up

QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER?
Attached Images
  
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2015, 01:09 AM   #79
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER?
I think this is Philippine too Barry .
Mindanao ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2015, 02:40 AM   #80
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
Default

yup. philippines (mindanao). i notice the subtle ukil close to the handle..
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2015, 06:50 PM   #81
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER?
Thank you Barry. And also many thanks for posting this interesting example for comparison. It is the third gunong in this style I ever have seen. Regarding the age of all three here shown examples I think that they WWII examples since by all three examples aluminium is used, a sign of this area IMVHO. And maybe all three coming from the same workshop.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2015, 07:26 PM   #82
Gehazi
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 21
Default

absolutely love the faux pistol blades, great collection!
Gehazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2015, 09:08 PM   #83
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gehazi
absolutely love the faux pistol blades, great collection!
Thank you Gehazi.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 12:26 AM   #84
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Cool

I'll risk a guess that they're pre-WW2 .
1920's-'30's ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 01:10 AM   #85
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

I have always wondered about the use of aluminium in the Philippines being used as a measurement of possible age. Quite a few threads here on the forum point to WWII as the starting point, but I know the US Army was using aluminium for the making of their canteens during the Spanish American War. I wonder how many other items that they used were made of this material as well? This could point to items like this having possibly being made much earlier than the WWII date we have been using when discussing these items.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 02:32 AM   #86
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Here's another thing to consider; the examples we have seen so far (okay, we haven't seen a lot) are all of revolver form .
I think this points to pre-WW2 otherwise we would see model 1911 45 caliber copies, no ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 03:03 AM   #87
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Quote:
Here's another thing to consider; the examples we have seen so far (okay, we haven't seen a lot) are all of revolver form .
I think this points to pre-WW2 otherwise we would see model 1911 45 caliber copies, no ?
That is a very good question Rick and I totally agree. You would think that more Philippine people would have had a greater chance of seeing a 1911A over the old Colt revolvers that were used earlier. These daggers seem to be a bit on the rare side and I have only seen photos of a dozen or so of them over the years and they were all of the revolver style.
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 03:33 PM   #88
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Very interesting discussion! And Rick has a very good point with the revolver style. And Robert with the use of canteen sheet. And I am sure that the maker of gunongs have had complete other view about the use of aluminum as we have it today.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2015, 04:13 PM   #89
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,412
Default

Have just get another interesting example from ebay. The seller provided only two pictures and not much information. I am very unsure about the age of this example, handle (pommel) and ferrule is an early style but the blade shows sharp luks which is a sign of much later examples. I doubt that the fittings are from silver. Pommel seems to be from bone. All comments are welcome, special age guesses.
Attached Images
  
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2015, 04:59 PM   #90
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Cool

I think there's also a chance this handle is of Tridacna, or the Giant Clam shell .
I didn't get to see the item description on ebay; are there any more pictures available Detlef ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.