Sea cow used for Iban hilts - Page 3

VANDOO · 22nd July 2012, 10:12 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE OFTEN DIG UP THE BONES OF OLD POSTS HERE.

IT IS GOOD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THESE SKULLS. I HAVE SEEN THE BONES A FEW TIMES BUT DID NOT DO ANYTHING WITH THEM, LUCKY FOR ME. I HAVE SEEN THE TUSKS USED FOR CIGARETTE HOLDERS SO THAT SHOULD GIVE AN IDEA OF SIZE. YOUR PICTURES GIVE A GOOD IDEA OF SIZE I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF INCLUDING YOUR PICTURES HERE AS OFTEN PICTURES VANISH IF NOT PROPERLY POSTED HERE AS SERVERS CHANGE OR VANISH AND INFORMATIO0N IS THUS LOST.
I HATED TO SEE GOOD SPECIMINS OF RARE MATERIAL SUCH AS SKULLS AND SUCH LAY IN A TRASH HEAP IN THE SWAMP BUT AM GLAD I DID NOT TRY TO SAVE THEM AS IN THE ONE LINK WHERE THE WOMAN LIKELY WENT TO JAIL AND WAS HEAVELY FINED EVEN IF SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE SKULL WAS. THERE BUT FOR CAUTION GO I.
I FOUND THAT IT WAS EVEN AGINST THE LAW FOR THE OWNERS OF ANIMAL ATTRACTIONS IN AUSTRALIA TO KEEP SKULLS OR BONES OF THEIR ANIMALS OR TO PICK UP ROAD KILL TO FEED TO THEIR ANIMALS WITHOUT PERMITS. FOUND THIS OUT BY ASKING IF HE HAD ANY OLD TAZMANIAN DEVIL SKULLS AROUND I COULD LOOK AT. DID GET TO HOLD A LIVE ONE THEY SURE MAKE SOME SCARY NOISE AND SHOW SOME TEETH , MUCH SAFER LOOKING AT A SKULL.

T. Koch · 15th August 2012, 09:38 AM

Hi Vandoo! I'm here to tell you that you're right about the dugong ivory! I found a very nicely made 18th century Chinese bracelet made with pieces of dugong "tusks" (incisors), but can't for the life of me find the reference now. - I'll check into this topic again when I find it!

In the meantime, here is a native Australian piece from a collection at the University of Glasgow: http://www.huntsearch.gla.ac.uk/cgi-...&browseMode=on

This is a much more crude piece than aforementioned Chinese bracelet, but it does however show that dugong ivory is both practically usable and that it indeed has a history of use in several cultures. As you yourself pointed out back in post No. #5 however, the size and shape of these "tusks" are not suitable for mandau handles.

So to recap, these are the standing questions atm:

1): Has bone been used as a source of mandau handle material, as we see it with sambar stag and wood?

2): IF bone has been used as handle material, which animal species did then supply the bone?

This is SO exciting I think, and I feel confident that we will get around it in due time.

All the best, - Thor

VANDOO · 15th August 2012, 07:31 PM

ITS GOOD TO SEE SOME PICTURES OF ITEMS ACTUALLY MADE FROM THESE TUSKS. I WAS A MARINE ZOOLOGY/ OCEANOGRAPHY MAJOR BACK IN THE LATE 1960'S SO HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF INTRESTS IN THE FIELD.
ONE THING I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED ABOUT THIS FAMILY OF ANIMALS IS THAT THEY HAVE SURVIVED AS WELL AS THEY HAVE. THEY ARE LARGE AND SLOW, STAY MOSTLY IN THE SHALLOWS, THEY HAVE NO MEANS OF DEFENSE. THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN VAST GROUPS OF THEM AND THEY ARE EDIBLE. MAN HAS FOUND THEM EASY TO HUNT AS THEY MUST SURFACE TO BREATHE AND NOT DANGEROUS AND ONE COULD MAKE A FEAST FOR A FAIRLY LARGE VILLAGE. EVEN MORE PUZZELING IS HOW DO THEY PROTECT THEMSELVES AND THEIR YOUNG FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS. I WOULD THINK SALT WATER CROCODILES AND ALLIGATORS WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE DUGONG AND MANATEE LONG AGO. MAN WIPED OUT THE STELLER SEA COW BUT WHY HAD IT SURRVIVED LIVING WITH KILLER WHALES FOR SO LONG.
THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS ABOUT THE SPECIES BUT I SUSPECT THEY MUST HAVE SOME MEANS OF PROTECTION FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS IN THEIR ENVIRONMENTS BUT UNFORTUNATELY NONE FROM MANKIND.

VANDOO · 24th August 2012, 11:34 PM

MANATEES,WITH HUMANS FOR COMPARISON THE BIG MALES GET UP TO 18 FEET LONG SO IT LOOKS ABOUT RIGHT. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF ITS MADE UP OR AN ACTUAL PICTURE. THE DUGONG IS SIMULAR IN SIZE WITH A DIFFERENT TAIL.

Rick · 25th August 2012, 01:32 AM

I think we're talking photoshop here Barry .

Manatees swim by my Mother's dock in Florida all the time .
I have never seen one that large in FLA waters at least .

22nd July 2012, 10:12 PM	#61
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE OFTEN DIG UP THE BONES OF OLD POSTS HERE. IT IS GOOD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THESE SKULLS. I HAVE SEEN THE BONES A FEW TIMES BUT DID NOT DO ANYTHING WITH THEM, LUCKY FOR ME. I HAVE SEEN THE TUSKS USED FOR CIGARETTE HOLDERS SO THAT SHOULD GIVE AN IDEA OF SIZE. YOUR PICTURES GIVE A GOOD IDEA OF SIZE I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF INCLUDING YOUR PICTURES HERE AS OFTEN PICTURES VANISH IF NOT PROPERLY POSTED HERE AS SERVERS CHANGE OR VANISH AND INFORMATIO0N IS THUS LOST. I HATED TO SEE GOOD SPECIMINS OF RARE MATERIAL SUCH AS SKULLS AND SUCH LAY IN A TRASH HEAP IN THE SWAMP BUT AM GLAD I DID NOT TRY TO SAVE THEM AS IN THE ONE LINK WHERE THE WOMAN LIKELY WENT TO JAIL AND WAS HEAVELY FINED EVEN IF SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE SKULL WAS. THERE BUT FOR CAUTION GO I. I FOUND THAT IT WAS EVEN AGINST THE LAW FOR THE OWNERS OF ANIMAL ATTRACTIONS IN AUSTRALIA TO KEEP SKULLS OR BONES OF THEIR ANIMALS OR TO PICK UP ROAD KILL TO FEED TO THEIR ANIMALS WITHOUT PERMITS. FOUND THIS OUT BY ASKING IF HE HAD ANY OLD TAZMANIAN DEVIL SKULLS AROUND I COULD LOOK AT. DID GET TO HOLD A LIVE ONE THEY SURE MAKE SOME SCARY NOISE AND SHOW SOME TEETH , MUCH SAFER LOOKING AT A SKULL. Attached Images

24th August 2012, 11:34 PM	#64
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MANATEES,WITH HUMANS FOR COMPARISON THE BIG MALES GET UP TO 18 FEET LONG SO IT LOOKS ABOUT RIGHT. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF ITS MADE UP OR AN ACTUAL PICTURE. THE DUGONG IS SIMULAR IN SIZE WITH A DIFFERENT TAIL. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 09:38 AM	#62
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Vandoo! I'm here to tell you that you're right about the dugong ivory! I found a very nicely made 18th century Chinese bracelet made with pieces of dugong "tusks" (incisors), but can't for the life of me find the reference now. - I'll check into this topic again when I find it! In the meantime, here is a native Australian piece from a collection at the University of Glasgow: http://www.huntsearch.gla.ac.uk/cgi-...&browseMode=on This is a much more crude piece than aforementioned Chinese bracelet, but it does however show that dugong ivory is both practically usable and that it indeed has a history of use in several cultures. As you yourself pointed out back in post No. #5 however, the size and shape of these "tusks" are not suitable for mandau handles. So to recap, these are the standing questions atm: 1): Has bone been used as a source of mandau handle material, as we see it with sambar stag and wood? 2): IF bone has been used as handle material, which animal species did then supply the bone? This is SO exciting I think, and I feel confident that we will get around it in due time. All the best, - Thor

15th August 2012, 07:31 PM	#63
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS GOOD TO SEE SOME PICTURES OF ITEMS ACTUALLY MADE FROM THESE TUSKS. I WAS A MARINE ZOOLOGY/ OCEANOGRAPHY MAJOR BACK IN THE LATE 1960'S SO HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF INTRESTS IN THE FIELD. ONE THING I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED ABOUT THIS FAMILY OF ANIMALS IS THAT THEY HAVE SURVIVED AS WELL AS THEY HAVE. THEY ARE LARGE AND SLOW, STAY MOSTLY IN THE SHALLOWS, THEY HAVE NO MEANS OF DEFENSE. THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN VAST GROUPS OF THEM AND THEY ARE EDIBLE. MAN HAS FOUND THEM EASY TO HUNT AS THEY MUST SURFACE TO BREATHE AND NOT DANGEROUS AND ONE COULD MAKE A FEAST FOR A FAIRLY LARGE VILLAGE. EVEN MORE PUZZELING IS HOW DO THEY PROTECT THEMSELVES AND THEIR YOUNG FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS. I WOULD THINK SALT WATER CROCODILES AND ALLIGATORS WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE DUGONG AND MANATEE LONG AGO. MAN WIPED OUT THE STELLER SEA COW BUT WHY HAD IT SURRVIVED LIVING WITH KILLER WHALES FOR SO LONG. THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS ABOUT THE SPECIES BUT I SUSPECT THEY MUST HAVE SOME MEANS OF PROTECTION FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS IN THEIR ENVIRONMENTS BUT UNFORTUNATELY NONE FROM MANKIND.

25th August 2012, 01:32 AM	#65
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I think we're talking photoshop here Barry . Manatees swim by my Mother's dock in Florida all the time . I have never seen one that large in FLA waters at least .