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Old 4th July 2019, 10:48 PM   #1
A. G. Maisey
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Default The Beginning:- A Question

I have a question for everybody who follows this Forum.

I've answered a lot of questions, so now I think I'm entitled to ask one, and it is a question that is probably mostly a matter of opinion, additionally it is not highly technical.

What I would like to know is this:-

on a keris blade, where is the beginning of the blade?

Is it the point, one side or another, or is it somewhere else?

The Beginning of the Blade, an opinion please.

Thank you.
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Old 5th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #2
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I think it begins at the Ganja, Alan.
To my way of thinking such things end at the point.

Does a Phallus/Lingam begin at the tip?
Or does it begin at the base?

Last edited by Rick : 5th July 2019 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #3
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Rick, my personal opinion is that all things begin at the beginning, and the beginning of everything is the foundation or the base, so I guess I'd have to say that a lingga begins at its base, which when you think about it seems a bit contradictory, but still, that's only my opinion.

Let's see what others might think, that's why I asked the question, to try to see if there is more or less a broad agreement on the beginning part of a keris blade
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #4
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My personal opinion is the Pesi, beginning of the blade. Means when its finish, or done as a Keris.

If during the making, maybe different? The mpu start making from the base area, gandik etc. Just above gonjo. Even when making the sogokan dan blumbangan, they started from the bottom area.


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Old 5th July 2019, 12:02 PM   #5
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OK, pesi?

Why not?

Its more or less in the same general area, the big end, so to speak, so that's two votes for the big end of the keris.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 6th July 2019 at 05:17 AM. Reason: consistency
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Old 5th July 2019, 03:49 PM   #6
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Taking the blade as a whole, one way of approaching the question is to consider that the surface of the blade, in its entirety, is the beginning.

That's the part that interacts with the rest of the universe, if you will, and separates the keris from everything else; the interface between the object and its surroundings, the essence of its reality.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:01 PM   #7
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I'm not sure what i really think about this, but when i first read the question the first thing that popped into my head is that the blade begins where i come in contact with it since the keris is then an extension of the self. So i am inclined to say the pejetan/blumbangan area.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:44 PM   #8
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Keeping in mind the lingam then the beginning/base should be where the pesi joins the blade. This might not include the gonjo which could be seen as an external addition to the lingam. The pesi itself could be seen as an internal attachment feature rather than part of the lingam. Shavism might dispute this interpretation of the lingam symbolism
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:49 PM   #9
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OK David, another vote for the Big End.

Bob, I like your idea, in fact I like it quite a lot, it seems to me to be an interpretation of the concept that nothing exists unless it is seen, that is, that everything only comes into existence at the point where it can be seen to exist, thus if it does not exist it has no beginning, and if no beginning, it also has no end.

You're not a cupboard philosopher are you Bob? This sounds exactly like like the sort of conversations I have with some of my more academic mates.

Its a great answer, but I was thinking in very simple terms, as I said when I asked the question, I'm just looking for opinions, and I'm not being technical.What I would like to achieve, if possible is a group opinion that is weighted more one way than the other,whichever way that might be.

So Bob, if you were to take off your philosopher's hat, and just take a simple layman's position, where do you think this object that we know as a keris might begin?

There it is, its laying on the table, we walk past, we notice it, where does it start?
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:49 PM   #10
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You might also ask who does the keris truly belong to ie the giver (wielder/lingam holder) or the receiver (victim/yoni), if it is the giver the beginning (point of first contact) is the gonjo or blumbangan, if it is the receiver then the point of first contact is the tip
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:55 PM   #11
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In some cases Dr. David, that keris might belong to entire family, or even an entire community.

Your first idea was very nice. At school I was taught never to use words like "good", "bad", "nice" without pausing to think if there is a better word that could be used instead. I went to a pretty old fashioned school. So I did think before using "nice", and this is indeed a very correct word in this instance.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:16 PM   #12
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No philosphers in my cupboard, Alan; I even looked for a Philosopher's Stone, but no luck. My dross will have to remain, ungilded.

OK looking at a keris. If it's sheathed, very little of the actual blade is visible, and I don't consider the dress as an integral part of the keris, though many would disagree. For me the blade is, if not everything, at least the essence.

Unsheathed, while I'd like to make a point of the point, it's still the shape or outline of the blade that catches the eye and forces a closer look at details. While you may think that this is not quite "the beginning," I'd reply that it was the goal of the maker, and existed in some form in his mind's eye, which he then brought into existence on this lower plane.

I'd take issue with the gonjo being the beginning; anatomically it seems incorrect, if one considers the whole of the object, which is among many other factors a symbolic representation of the virile member, so to speak. That said, the point of either is in many ways also the end of the object under discussion, yet it's what is first met with when used for its intended purpose.

So I'd have to say that the end is also the beginning, conceptually. So to speak.

Interesting question.

Last edited by Bob A : 5th July 2019 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:48 PM   #13
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Possibly the real beginning of a keris is in the mind's eye of the Maker.
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:26 AM   #14
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Bob & Rick, I think you're both philosophers, and of course you are both absolutely right from a philosophical point of view.

But I'm a very simple man, and I tried my best to ask a very simple question, I was not looking for any type of technical approach, neither the technology of the forge, nor the technology of the mind.

May I suggest that we forget about the things that we might believe, or even truly know about the keris?

It is an object, its physical beginning is somewhere, maybe the little end, maybe the big end, maybe one side or another, maybe one face or another.

It is a thing, it has a certain length, a certain width and a certain height.

Where does that thing begin?

I'm trying to go somewhere with this, this is just chapter one, and what I would really like to see are some simple, uncomplicated opinions, just like my simple, uncomplicated question.
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Old 6th July 2019, 04:13 AM   #15
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I am no philosopher Mate.
The opinion I expressed in my first response to your question must stand as stated.

Why?

Because as you reiterated in your response to Bob and I it is a simple answer to a simple question and an opinion.
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Old 6th July 2019, 04:54 AM   #16
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Why not the edge, then? In use, the edge delineates the first part of the blade to perform the actual function of the blade; since the function may be to cut or to puncture, the tip must be considered part of the edge.

What is the beginning of a circle?

For that matter, what is the sound of one hand clapping? Questions can appear simple; that doesn't necessarily imply that the answer will be equally simple.

We monkeys do love a puzzle, even if we must fabricate them ourselves, for our amusement nd edification.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:12 AM   #17
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Rick, he who claims not to be a philosopher is probably the greatest philosopher of all, however, if your final opinion is the same as your first, then we can record that as a vote for the Big End.

And Bob, if you like the idea of the edge, or perhaps the entire circumference, then we can possibly clarify that by saying that your vote is for anywhere other than the simplicity of the Big End, or the Little End, and that you are prepared to accept all and every part of the whole as the beginning.

At this point we are not thinking in terms of any ideas of right or wrong, just in terms of personal opinions.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:34 AM   #18
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

Not a simple task.

I find it simple to get wrapped in complexity. But the ideal, for me, is to achieve that quality that mathematicians call "elegance." Usually, I fail.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Rick, he who claims not to be a philosopher is probably the greatest philosopher of all, however, if your final opinion is the same as your first, then we can record that as a vote for the Big End.


You have requested that we put aside the philosophical and you have asked for the simple so I think we must Alan.
Ever since I petitioned Lee to create this subforum of Vikingsword all those years ago I must admit that the more I learn here the less I know.

Or possibly I am just not learning.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #20
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You sound like me Rick.

I'm always telling people that the more I learn the less I know --- and this applies very much so with keris.

I find that my focus just becomes more and more narrow.

But anyway, my question is not a trick question, and it doesn't need deep reflection or contemplation of the metaphysical, its just a straight Saturday afternoon ask:- where does the thing begin, where does it start?

I am going somewhere with this, but I'd like to get a a weight of opinion one way or another before I move on. At the moment we've got most people leaning towards the big end of this thing as the start of it, but there are a few more regulars that I'd like to hear from, so I'll wait a while before I go any further.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #21
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Hi Alan,

IMHO the begining of a Keris is at the Ganja.

In Indonesian language we always use word “ujung” to describe the pointy part of a weapon (ujung tombak = tip of spear).

Ujung itself means end.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,

Yohan
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Old 6th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

on a keris blade, where is the beginning of the blade?



I am not a philosopher and since the beginning of this thread, I am wondering: Why this question?. Alan will probably tell us more later.
I am scratching my head (is it the beginning or the end of my body?) but have no valid reply to submit
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:31 AM   #23
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Thanks Yohan, so you're a Big End man

and Jean, you have no opinion?

OK, no opinion.

As to why I asked the question, it was because I wished to try to establish a consensus of opinion in respect of the beginning of a physical keris blade.

Does it start at the very tip, the ujung, the front and move back towards the hilt, or does it start at the base of the blade and move forward towards the point? Where does this long thin piece of metal begin? Everything begins somewhere. Does a building begin at its foundations and go up, or with its roof and go down?

When we look at a keris, how do we hold it? How do we examine it ? Do we point it towards the ground, or towards the sky, or towards the horizon, or towards somewhere else?

Why do I want to establish a consensus of opinion?

Because I want to prepare a foundation for further understanding. Its that simple.

All I'm asking for is an opinion, not a theory that needs to be defended.
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #24
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Well for a change I would say that the beginning of the blade is the tip of the pesi (the bottom end of a blade). The pesi is part of the blade since it "penetrates" it from the base.
Regards
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:31 AM   #25
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I think the keris begins at the ganja...the point we focus on when we first take it out from the sarong.
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Old 6th July 2019, 11:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul de Souza
I think the keris begins at the ganja...the point we focus on when we first take it out from the sarong.


I considered this option too but the ganja is separate from the blade unless it is iras
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Old 6th July 2019, 11:28 AM   #27
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Thank you Jean, and thank you Paul.
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #28
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Pardon me for my little knowledge. I would said it is at the TOP. Why?

The keris tip is 'our head'. We must always submit and respect the Creator and it's creation.

The bilah and pesi symbolize the form lingga while the ganja symbolizes the yoni form.
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Old 6th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #29
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Thank you Anthony.
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:58 PM   #30
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Hi, I think the beginning part is the pesi. Because from the video about making keris that I watched, the first part that was shaped is pesi.

Regards,

Joe
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