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Old 22nd February 2012, 11:02 AM   #1
Multumesc
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Default Rapier old

I have in my collection a Rapier and I want to know your opinion about its age and in what time can be. Overall length is 102.5 cm, the handle is 15cm. I want to know what is the symbol of the ricasso. Thank you.

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Last edited by fernando : 22nd February 2012 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2012, 05:36 PM   #2
fernando
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Very nice swept hilt sword
Solingen? 17th century?
Look here, namely post # 38.

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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...53&page=2&pp=30
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Old 22nd February 2012, 07:57 PM   #3
Matchlock
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The cross and orb mark, as well as the hilt, seem to suggest a South German make of the early 17th c.

Best,
Michael
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Old 22nd February 2012, 08:23 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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Nice piece Multumesc!!!
I very much agree with Fernando and Michaels assessments, 17th century, but I am puzzled by the cross and orb in its placement on the ricasso. As we know this is not a makers mark, but a device used typically in conjunction with phrases, mottos and invocations found on blades. These are usually in the fullers or blade center and the cross and orb usually at open or close of the inscription. Often found used in the same way is the 'anchor', which is many times seen with intricate variations in the cross bars, as are these in some cases.

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Jim
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Old 29th June 2019, 01:03 PM   #5
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Default Rapier old

And yet, there were rapier Solingen, marked with Cross & ORB on ricasso.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:46 PM   #6
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multumesc
And yet, there were rapier Solingen, marked with Cross & ORB on ricasso.


I would like to thank you so much for bringing up this old thread!! and especially as things were clearly left unresolved. This is what is so great about this, especially as we have often learned so much more as time has lapsed, and in my case here, you have clearly shown the error in my adamant comments.

It does seem that despite the misleading note by Wagner (1967, "Cut and Thrust Weapons") claiming that the cross and orb was used only as included in phrases, mottos etc. but not as a 'makers mark'....it appears that it did serve in some varying capacities with established makers.
Here I would like to thank you again, and for showing this amazing sword by Wundes, who indeed did use the orb and cross along with his famed 'kings heads'.

Going through 'Wallace Collection' (Mann, 1962) I found varying instances of the cross and orb applied to blades as 'makers marks' but no makers name specified. It does seem that this was one of varying devices that was selected and added to other markings on blades by makers, whether or not with the actual mark of the maker. These seem to have a universal stigma as either talismanic or quality oriented devices, and there seem to have been certain deviations sometimes applied to 'personalize' them in fact to use by certain makers. Some had added cross bars, even crosses at top and bottom of orb; initials (as seen here with the Wundes 1560-1610) motif; even some with inverted heart instead of orb.

These seem to have been an affectation of 16th and 17th c. and as noted, many times inlaid with copper.
Ironically, Wagner notes (p. 174) that Heinrich Kohl (Col) a German working in Spain 1590-1610, used the IMPERIAL ORB and other inscriptions as trade marks (contrary to his remark claiming the device was not used as makers mark).

With regard to the rapier of your original post of 2012, our late friend Michael properly identified it as German early 17th c. (as shown in Wagner pl. 3)
Here I would point out that at the ricasso, are the familiar 'sickle marks' which seem placed in that location in the same manner as the cross and orb on your example, suggesting there was indeed a 'convention' of this kind of application in many cases.

My observation was primarily to the somewhat crude character of the cross and orb, but apparently my notation on the placement at ricasso was misspoken (see the page from Wagner with Wundes blade and his comment on cross and orb which prompted it). It is known that makers used various artisans and engravers to decorate or mark blades, and quite possible that a workman rather than engraver did the mark.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:36 AM   #7
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Here a foto of a Suhl made wheellock carbine of the houshold cavalry of the German emporer Ferdinand II. with the same cross & orb mark on its but.
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