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Old 29th May 2019, 05:22 PM   #241
fernando
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Don't get upset Jens; diverting a bit doesn't hurt ! We are still in Indian weapons .
Back on track, then .
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Old 29th May 2019, 08:38 PM   #242
Jens Nordlunde
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Hmmm - may be.
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Old 30th May 2019, 12:13 AM   #243
Jim McDougall
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I agree with Jens, this discussion has gone 'nomadic' wandering off into the realm of the khanda and pata, which can be traced to the comment by Ariel (#214) noting the use of 'fragments of European rapiers' mounted in South Indian katars.

This comment developed 'legs' with my note (#223)in response suggesting that these katars noted were mounted indeed with fragments of European blades, but NOT of rapiers but full size arming blades. What took the wind was that I suggested that instances of use of the mounting of the thin rapier blades (fencing type) were likely for prestigious court weapons such as some khanda. I admit that I cannot now recall a khanda (firangi) with such a rapier blade.

Fernando (#225) then notes not to forget the pata with' European' blades (quoting my comment on rapier blades).

The discussion then devolves into the non sequiter debate on the skills and dexterity of Indian swordsmen with the pata, loosing track of the 'rapier' blade matter which brought these weapons into the mix.

I would simply say here, my mention of European 'rapier' blades was toward the VERY thin and narrow blades of 'rapiers' , those of swept hilt and cup hilt form, which were intended for civilian wear, and use in fencing (duels) etc.
These were NOT used as a rule in combat situations for obvious reasons, presumably these were so thin and narrow they would snap in the type of action required. I anxiously await being shown that description invalid.

Getting to the often contentious name game, the term rapier was often indiscriminately applied to swords in these times which had similar type hilts but the blades were much wider and more substantial (arming blades).

My remark on khanda or pata hilts with rapier blades as 'prestigious' character weapons may have been too broadly placed......and the references I have found note (usually pata) mounted with such 'rapier' blades (the exact character in heft unknown) were often used in demonstrations of skill of use, but not in field combat. It was noted that it was surprising that these were not more widely adopted (Pant).

I hope that will effectively close the rapier/pata /khanda chapter in this discussion on the JAMADHAR/KITARI, and that Bob and readers will accept my apologies for perpetuating the irrelevant 'rapier' issue.

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 30th May 2019 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 30th May 2019, 02:56 AM   #244
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Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!
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Old 30th May 2019, 04:21 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!


Roger that Ariel!!! I like that .'freewheeling'
Actually I'm Ok with that idea, but sometimes some really good stuff, like this rapier blades on patas thing, get lost under the heading jamadhar kitari.

Actually I've been learning a lot on that as Ive kept researching it, and have found khandas with what appear to be rapier blades, and that patas did have them too. Years ago I read somewhere that Marathas disdained the thrust and only subscribed to slashing cuts.....it sure would appear that's wrong.
So there's the beauty of conflict and different views.....there are things to be learned. ..possibly this becomes a topic for its own thread.

Regardless, I see your point, and well stated.
Steady on boys
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Old 30th May 2019, 04:33 AM   #246
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This thread opened on a speculative note, and seems to have benefited from observations and excursions into the surrounding thoughtscape. One never knows what piece of information might strike a spark and illuminate the darkness, or what might be found therein.

Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.
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Old 30th May 2019, 01:28 PM   #247
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Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.[/QUOTE]


LOL! VERY cleverly put Bob!
I am glad we all agree that certain expansions and tangents in a discussion can often lead to key discoveries on a particular subject which may not have otherwise be found. I know that in research I have often found answers in unrelated places, almost in a bizarre circumstance at times.....and indeed in the 'Serendip' realm.

Personally I feel I am learning a lot from our discussion here, and before returning to the jamadhar-kitari, I wanted to note that the 'rapier' excursion has revealed that some of my perceptions on these blades being used in khanda and pata were apparently patently incorrect.

Much of this derived from some 'chestnut' I read somewhere that claimed that the Marathas in swordsmanship despised the thrust, and preferred slashing cuts alone. That was clearly not entirely true as I have been finding references which not only pictured and noted rapier blades on these weapons, but clearly compelled the fact that they must have been used for thrusting. On that note I am opening a separate thread on this topic.

Returning to the jamadhar-kitari (KATARAH) , a line illustration of one of these is depicted in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", 1980, p.174, fig. 532) where Pant refers to the Egerton (1880, p.102) entries noting these as daggers of the Kafirs of Hindu Kush. Here Pant suggests these daggers were actually popular all over North India and Nepal from 16th through 18th centuries.
Here Pant further attributes this material to Stone (1934, p.314, fig. 398).

I would note here that this diffusion of the form is of course not surprising, as we have discussed the disparity between the animist/Hindu religion of the Kafir and related tribes of the Hindu Kush regions and the Muslim regime intent on subduing them. The diaspora of these tribes surely carried to form widely in many directions.
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