Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th July 2012, 04:41 PM   #1
Kipinga50
Member
 
Kipinga50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sao Vicente
Posts: 28
Default Moro Kris?

Hello all,
I just show you one Kris that I bought last week end, for your opinion, I do not know anything about weapons in Southeast Asia, my passion is weapons of Africa. The handle is of horn, the ferrule is silver, the Beca Beca are Brass, and the blade is inlaid with brass square. I await your comments.
Attached Images
      
Kipinga50 is offline  
Old 13th July 2012, 09:47 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

It looks like a Moro kris from the Sulu region. The pommel is in a simple junggayan style and I suppose the brass squares are perhaps talismanic (brass warding off evil).

It is strange that the brass is in squares instead of the usual dots and the forte is not in the usual elephant figure but a little more simplified.

Nice piece though and thanks for sharing.
Battara is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 01:41 AM   #3
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

I agree that quite a bit of craftmanship and effort went into making this piece.

However, it just doesn't vibes with me: neither as a traditional Moro piece nor as Malay work. Apart from the weird gandik area, the flow of lines of the blade is as strange as the inlay and the engraved motif at the end of the fullers; the hilt seems to copy a Sulu junggayan but both the pommel as well as the stepped grip area seems kinda off to me; peened over tang or just holding the pommel onto the grip (another unconventional approach)?

If I had to bet, I'd lay my 2 cents on it being a fairly recent reproduction, possibly by those busy Madurese artisans? Any signs of modern glue at the pommel/grip attachment or for setting the blade?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 01:53 AM   #4
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

BTW, where did this sword come from?
(Not locally from Sao Vicente, I guess.)

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 03:59 AM   #5
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I agree that quite a bit of craftmanship and effort went into making this piece.

However, it just doesn't vibes with me: neither as a traditional Moro piece nor as Malay work. Apart from the weird gandik area, the flow of lines of the blade is as strange as the inlay and the engraved motif at the end of the fullers; the hilt seems to copy a Sulu junggayan but both the pommel as well as the stepped grip area seems kinda off to me; peened over tang or just holding the pommel onto the grip (another unconventional approach)?

If I had to bet, I'd lay my 2 cents on it being a fairly recent reproduction, possibly by those busy Madurese artisans? Any signs of modern glue at the pommel/grip attachment or for setting the blade?

Regards,
Kai
Agree, there is something wrong here ...
I think it's maybe post 1950's
Kembang Kacang is all wrong, way too diminuitive .
Rick is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 04:49 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

Yes although I stand by what I said, there are more than those things I mentioned that are strange about this.

Kai you have a point - it may have been made recently - hadn't thought of that. Would make more sense.
Battara is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 08:34 AM   #7
Kipinga50
Member
 
Kipinga50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sao Vicente
Posts: 28
Arrow

Hi Kai,
It come from Nederland.
Kipinga50 is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 10:32 PM   #8
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

Quote:
It come from Nederland.
Could you try to inquire with the seller where he obtained it from?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 10:47 PM   #9
Maurice
Member
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Could you try to inquire with the seller where he obtained it from?

Regards,
Kai
He didn't get it from me.... LOL
Maurice is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 11:14 PM   #10
Kipinga50
Member
 
Kipinga50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sao Vicente
Posts: 28
Arrow

The seller in Rotterdam, told me that it was a Malay Kris, but I doubt he knows more than me.
Kipinga50 is offline  
Old 14th July 2012, 11:23 PM   #11
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

I meant wether it came from a Dutch collection (which?), some auction (where?), or directly from Indonesia/Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline  
Old 27th July 2012, 11:10 AM   #12
harimauhk
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 88
Default

Could this be what the Malays call a sundang?
harimauhk is offline  
Old 27th July 2012, 05:47 PM   #13
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

Yes, although there are some subtle differences between the Malay sundang and Moro krises.
Battara is offline  
Old 27th July 2012, 10:04 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Yes, although there are some subtle differences between the Malay sundang and Moro krises.
Such as?
Can you educate me (us)?
ariel is offline  
Old 28th July 2012, 02:43 AM   #15
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

That would take a while Ariel. However to mention a few things:

1. there are differences in okir - Malay is more "realistic" than the more stylized forms used by Moro groups, even more than that of the Sulu region.

2. the pommel is often tilted at close to a 45 degree angle and smaller. Moro older forms may be smaller but are not as angled in general, and later ones are larger and again not as angled.

3. the hilt section between the blade and the pommel has a more sculpted shape, often without a ferrule to speak of. This section where a ferrule would be is also often much smaller than the rest of the hilt in circumference. In Moro forms the same region under the pommel is not as sculpted and there is a large ferrule - sometimes as large as half the hilt.

4. the clamps between the hilt and the blade on Malay pieces are very thin and plain, but Moro clamps are often wider, and can be plain or have Moro okir.

5. the scabbards of good Malay examples have very long band sections of Malay okir. Moro bands are not as long down the length but have thinner bands of plain or okir work.

These are just some of the things that come quickly to mind at the moment.
Battara is offline  
Old 3rd December 2012, 04:25 AM   #16
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default Closing thread

Thread is closed on this piece.
Lew is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.