Crucible Steel ?

Rick · 26th March 2005, 01:21 AM

A salawar yataghan .
Opinions , comments ?

Jens Nordlunde · 26th March 2005, 04:10 PM

Hi Rick, is there so little difference in the colouring as shown in the picture, have you manipulated it, or was the light bad when you photographed it?

Jens

tom hyle · 26th March 2005, 04:47 PM

It looks like it's been etched and then lightly polished, leaving the "geographicalness" (hee hee hee; I hope you know what I mean; I'm fevery, so that's the best I can do), but removing the colour?

Rick · 26th March 2005, 05:18 PM

Jens,
I shot the picture last night under artificial lighting , as a result the red shift was uncorrectable so I removed the color .

Tom,
Yes the blade seems to have had a strong etch in the past but when I received it there was no perceptible color difference .
There are other areas along the edge that look homogenous , most of this pattern is away from the edge nearer the spine .

Here's one shot in daylight .

Ann Feuerbach · 26th March 2005, 05:51 PM

It does not look like crucible steel to me. Possibly preferentially etched.

tom hyle · 26th March 2005, 05:51 PM

Rick, this might be real wierd on a wootz blade, which I think this looks like, but doesn't that almost have the look of an inlaid edge? It could be smooth from sharpening, but I seem to see an etched dividing line? Where is the scientist formerly known as Moltenmuse? Sorry Ann; I liked your old name

Rick · 26th March 2005, 06:00 PM

Ann , thanks for your input .

Tom , I don't think the edge has been inserted , some of the homogenous areas are quite wide .
I was thinking more of the edge hardening process making the pattern disappear .

This is a pretty crazy pattern for a laminar welding process IMO .

Now this is a laminar forged Yat. blade and you can see the layering right up to the edge .

Then again I'm no genius about this stuff , all I do is push a broom around here and try to learn .

tom hyle · 26th March 2005, 06:07 PM

Whew! I thought at first that was a new view of the same sword, & was gonna say now it DOES look like lamination; always good to read the whole thing!

Ann, we were going at the same time

Rick, I thought that, too; that the pattern is very fine-grained and awfully "randomly" active for laminate. Of course, I defer to Ann on this subject, and I'm far from certain; in person, maybe. Would hardening heat remove the pattern? I could see it would change it, but I thought it took more like welding heat (much hotter) to remove it?

Rick · 26th March 2005, 06:25 PM

Sorry for creating confusion there Tom .

The new picture is of a Balkan or Greek Yataghan .

Both of these blades have been strongly etched .

I don't want to digress but the Yataghan blade shown has many areas that show a crystalline look .

I'm sadly ignorant of the effects of differing heats during forging .

I think I was sleeping during class .

Jens Nordlunde · 26th March 2005, 09:35 PM

Rick, is the pattern VERY different along the blade?
Is it possible for you to show it?

Jens

Rick · 26th March 2005, 10:06 PM

Hi Jens , I think I'll try to give this sword a light etch in the next couple of days then I'll try some more pictures . The pattern is not consistent over the length of the blade .
Stay tuned .

RSWORD · 28th March 2005, 12:24 AM

I am far from an expert on blade metallurgy but thought I would give my .02. I don't believe it is an artificially created damascus pattern, ie, wax resist and created via acid. The pattern is too random for that in my opinion. I also do not believe the blade is wootz. However, wootz can be melted away either during the forging of the blade or while differentially heat treating a blade. If the temperature is not controlled throughout the forging process, you can have "dead spots". What I am seeing on the blade almost looks like "hada" that you see on a Japanese sword. Perhaps this is a folded blade with a heat treated edge and what you are seeing on the blade is the grain of the steel from the folding and then the heat treatment has created sort of a "hamon" along the edge.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th March 2005, 09:48 AM

Hi Rick,

My knowledge of how the blades were made has been very little, until I read the following thread by Gt Obach http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=503 and also till I read the book ‘Persian Steel’, Oxford University Press 2000, by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, where James Allan quotes R.B.M.Binning: A Journal of two years travel in Persia, Ceylon etc., 2 vol. London 1857, and Massalski: ‘Préparation de l’acier damassé en Perse’, Annuarie du Journal des Mines de Russie, 1841.

Th.H.Heldley also writes something in his book Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India. London 1892, about blade making in India – but unfortunately his description is more than short.

Unfortunately I cant quote from Persian Steel, as there is the copyright to consider, and it would be two to three pages, but I can recommend you to try to get the book at your library.

RSword’s comment on how different patterns on blades can occur is interesting, as it must have been difficult for the smiths to keep the same heat all over the blade, but I also think that if there were small traces of other metals along the blade, the pattern would change.

The pattern on your blade looks to me as if it is in relief, which is strange. I think I have seen it before, but at the moment I don’t remember where, but to me it suggests an acid treatment of some kind. How is the colour of the blade, is it a ‘dull’ grey?

Jens

Rick · 28th March 2005, 05:02 PM

" The pattern on your blade looks to me as if it is in relief, which is strange. I think I have seen it before, but at the moment I don’t remember where, but to me it suggests an acid treatment of some kind. How is the colour of the blade, is it a ‘dull’ grey? "

Hi Jens , yes it is fairly grey .

Lee · 28th March 2005, 06:15 PM

My opinion is that the pattern is arising from layers and the grain pattern of the steel.

Gt Obach · 28th March 2005, 07:05 PM

ditto
nice blade... looks like a flat laminate... and lotsa layers

Greg

Jens Nordlunde · 28th March 2005, 08:06 PM

Hi Lee and Greg,
Yes to me it seems like that - but how, and why?
To me, there seems to be, at the moment to the question than answers.

Jens

tom hyle · 29th March 2005, 01:21 AM

How and why? Folding, and because that's how steel was made, alloyed, and homogenized (other than crucible steel); no mystery there.

26th March 2005, 01:21 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Crucible Steel ? A salawar yataghan . Opinions , comments ? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 26th March 2005 at 01:32 AM.

26th March 2005, 05:18 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Jens, I shot the picture last night under artificial lighting , as a result the red shift was uncorrectable so I removed the color . Tom, Yes the blade seems to have had a strong etch in the past but when I received it there was no perceptible color difference . There are other areas along the edge that look homogenous , most of this pattern is away from the edge nearer the spine . Here's one shot in daylight . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 26th March 2005 at 05:34 PM.

26th March 2005, 06:00 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Ann , thanks for your input . Tom , I don't think the edge has been inserted , some of the homogenous areas are quite wide . I was thinking more of the edge hardening process making the pattern disappear . This is a pretty crazy pattern for a laminar welding process IMO . Now this is a laminar forged Yat. blade and you can see the layering right up to the edge . Then again I'm no genius about this stuff , all I do is push a broom around here and try to learn . Attached Images

28th March 2005, 08:06 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Lee and Greg, Yes to me it seems like that - but how, and why? To me, there seems to be, at the moment to the question than answers. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 28th March 2005 at 08:18 PM.

26th March 2005, 04:10 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, is there so little difference in the colouring as shown in the picture, have you manipulated it, or was the light bad when you photographed it? Jens

26th March 2005, 04:47 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It looks like it's been etched and then lightly polished, leaving the "geographicalness" (hee hee hee; I hope you know what I mean; I'm fevery, so that's the best I can do), but removing the colour?

26th March 2005, 05:51 PM	#5
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	It does not look like crucible steel to me. Possibly preferentially etched.

26th March 2005, 06:07 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Whew! I thought at first that was a new view of the same sword, & was gonna say now it DOES look like lamination; always good to read the whole thing! Ann, we were going at the same time Rick, I thought that, too; that the pattern is very fine-grained and awfully "randomly" active for laminate. Of course, I defer to Ann on this subject, and I'm far from certain; in person, maybe. Would hardening heat remove the pattern? I could see it would change it, but I thought it took more like welding heat (much hotter) to remove it?

26th March 2005, 06:25 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Sorry for creating confusion there Tom . The new picture is of a Balkan or Greek Yataghan . Both of these blades have been strongly etched . I don't want to digress but the Yataghan blade shown has many areas that show a crystalline look . I'm sadly ignorant of the effects of differing heats during forging . I think I was sleeping during class .

26th March 2005, 09:35 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Rick, is the pattern VERY different along the blade? Is it possible for you to show it? Jens

26th March 2005, 10:06 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Jens , I think I'll try to give this sword a light etch in the next couple of days then I'll try some more pictures . The pattern is not consistent over the length of the blade . Stay tuned .

28th March 2005, 12:24 AM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I am far from an expert on blade metallurgy but thought I would give my .02. I don't believe it is an artificially created damascus pattern, ie, wax resist and created via acid. The pattern is too random for that in my opinion. I also do not believe the blade is wootz. However, wootz can be melted away either during the forging of the blade or while differentially heat treating a blade. If the temperature is not controlled throughout the forging process, you can have "dead spots". What I am seeing on the blade almost looks like "hada" that you see on a Japanese sword. Perhaps this is a folded blade with a heat treated edge and what you are seeing on the blade is the grain of the steel from the folding and then the heat treatment has created sort of a "hamon" along the edge.

28th March 2005, 09:48 AM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, My knowledge of how the blades were made has been very little, until I read the following thread by Gt Obach http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=503 and also till I read the book ‘Persian Steel’, Oxford University Press 2000, by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, where James Allan quotes R.B.M.Binning: A Journal of two years travel in Persia, Ceylon etc., 2 vol. London 1857, and Massalski: ‘Préparation de l’acier damassé en Perse’, Annuarie du Journal des Mines de Russie, 1841. Th.H.Heldley also writes something in his book Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India. London 1892, about blade making in India – but unfortunately his description is more than short. Unfortunately I cant quote from Persian Steel, as there is the copyright to consider, and it would be two to three pages, but I can recommend you to try to get the book at your library. RSword’s comment on how different patterns on blades can occur is interesting, as it must have been difficult for the smiths to keep the same heat all over the blade, but I also think that if there were small traces of other metals along the blade, the pattern would change. The pattern on your blade looks to me as if it is in relief, which is strange. I think I have seen it before, but at the moment I don’t remember where, but to me it suggests an acid treatment of some kind. How is the colour of the blade, is it a ‘dull’ grey? Jens

28th March 2005, 05:02 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	" The pattern on your blade looks to me as if it is in relief, which is strange. I think I have seen it before, but at the moment I don’t remember where, but to me it suggests an acid treatment of some kind. How is the colour of the blade, is it a ‘dull’ grey? " Hi Jens , yes it is fairly grey .

28th March 2005, 06:15 PM	#15
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 892	My opinion is that the pattern is arising from layers and the grain pattern of the steel.

28th March 2005, 07:05 PM	#16
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	ditto nice blade... looks like a flat laminate... and lotsa layers Greg

29th March 2005, 01:21 AM	#18
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	How and why? Folding, and because that's how steel was made, alloyed, and homogenized (other than crucible steel); no mystery there.