Between Solo and Yogya - Page 2

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2007, 07:02 AM

I rather suspect that this blade could be something re-manufactured from a pedang blade, specifically for use in its original fittings.

ganjawulung · 16th July 2007, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I rather suspect that this blade could be something re-manufactured from a pedang blade, specifically for use in its original fittings.

Dear Alan,
Someday, if we'll meet I'll bring it to you. But I don't think it is a remanufacture. I am quite sure for that. You may see from the slorok -- that is not a (thick) slorok of a normal pedang. The slorok is as thin as keris slorok. It was regarded by many of my keris friend from Solo, Yogya, and according to them, it is "asli" (not fake or remake...)

The style of pamor -- is typically Mataram. (It is not possible to describe it by words), also the iron. A couple of "akhodiyat" (glitter pamor) in the beras wutah. But quite sure, that the metal material was especially made for such form of weapon. You may loop with your magnifying glass...

Anyway, thanks for your kind attention

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 16th July 2007, 08:33 AM

These are more pictures on keris sheaths made of "trembalo" wood, with different chatoyance. One Yogya gayaman with old silver pendhok, "bunton" type with "alas-alasan" motive (forest motive). And the other one is keris sheath, iras (one piece of wood) Yogya gayaman -- with brass pendhok, slewah or blewahan type.

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2007, 08:59 AM

Pak Ganja, you have it in your hand, I do not, if you say it is asli, then it is asli.

However, it is a non-typical form, it is long rather than short, of light cross section, and it has a flat tang. In my experience, this type of blade is very likely to be re-manufactured. It is a waste of time looking at it to try to guess if it has been re-manufactured or not, it could have been done over 100 years ago, re-forged, cut and then reforged again.Let me start with a normal pedang suduk,and I could produce this blade , including the apparently thin slorok, myself.

But let me put it another way:- if came across this blade in the market place, I would assume it was re-manufactured and the price I paid for it would be based on that assumption.

Still, if you are convinced it is asli, then I bow to the wisdom of your judgement.

PenangsangII · 16th July 2007, 03:28 PM

Pak Ganja,

The type of weapon called "cis" you mentioned was as you said tangguh Mataram. May I ask who normally used it in the past - whether he was king, courtiers, Pangerans, Palace guards etc? How it was worn as definitely the bearer must also wear at least a keris?

ganjawulung · 16th July 2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The type of weapon called "cis" you mentioned was as you said tangguh Mataram. May I ask who normally used it in the past - whether he was king, courtiers, Pangerans, Palace guards etc? How it was worn as definitely the bearer must also wear at least a keris?

Dear Penangsang,
Just call it, "tempius" -- because the form is resemble to that of Lombok weapon. And I dare not to say that it has tangguh Mataram. But the pamor and the iron, is the kind of keris's iron and pamor of tangguh Mataram.

What I had found, after visited the "Gedong Pusaka" (Room of Pusaka) of Keraton (Palace) Solo before it was destroyed by fire in 1985, I saw that the keraton had quite a number of uncommon forms of weapon with pamor. Such as, handful dagger (Pangeran Puger -- the Chief of Gedong Pusaka -- said, it was usually used as kind of secret weapon by the palace guard). Mr Mans (Hidayat) had shown us too, an uncommon weapon of "jantra" (arrows) in another thread a couple days ago. I also saw that the tip of the karaton (palace) umbrella had a tip of secret spear too. It is called as "menur" (usually without pamor, pointed point). It would be used by the king in the emergency situation. And also, secret weapon in the walking stick of kings. I hope this kind of 'Javanese tempius' is a such weapon...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 12:45 AM

Pak Ganja, I beg your forgiveness because of my continuing pursuit of this trivial matter. I myself have often taken the position that in respect of South East Asian weaponry, names of the weapons, and for that matter other things, are not particularly important, because of the indisputable fact that names change from area to area, town to town, and village to village.

However, if we accept that this blade, which you originally described as a "cis", is indeed an old weapon, that was forged in its present mechanically inadequate form from the outset, and that we feel it may be appropriate to attribute it to Lombok as a "tempius", then let us look at what Pak Djelengga says about the tempius:-

"--- the form of the blade is round or square,there are also (ones) like a blimbing which have three corners (edges), four , or many corners (edges).---"

Pak Djelengga does not say that a tempius can have a flat blade with two edges, nor an ovoid blade; he is quite clear:- a tempius may have a round blade, or a blade with three or more edges.

Therefore, just as you have so wisely disqualified this "cis" as a "sendirung", because it has no metuk, I feel we must also disqualify it as a "tempius", because it has a blade of incorrect cross section.

Thus, we are left with a longish blade of light construction with a flat tang , not designed to withstand side pressures. This blade is made from old material , and it came in an old, broken , walking stick.

Please understand, I am not challenging the knowledge and judgement of either you, or your friends, when you tell us that this piece of wesi aji is without doubt in the form in which it was originally forged. I am certain that both you and your friends could mount an extremely convincing argument, possibly complete with evidence, that would dispel all doubt in respect of the correctness of your individual and joint opinions. So, if you say that this blade is original in all respects I accept without reservation that this is your opinion.

Equally, I accept that it might be difficult to prove that this exquisite piece of wesi aji never occupied a place of honour in the walking stick of a ruler. So since we cannot disprove this proposal, let us all accept it as a possibility.

I must say, this approach to the study the Javanese culture and its weaponry is certainly more interesting than the humourless pursuit of facts.

After all, what are facts?

Only those things that most people believe.

And we all know that the vast majority of people are easily led.

ganjawulung · 17th July 2007, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.

Dear Alan,
I am very interested in knowing more on cis. Is this (pls see the pictures) also a cis? Where can I find the reference, that such form is a cis? I've tried to search in books, and also other source, but didnt find any clue...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 04:56 AM

Pak Ganja, I do not know of any book reference on cis.

I have the name from various people that I know, and have known , in Solo.

My wife, who comes from East Jawa , calls some of these things "pancing buaya", which name she got from her father who used to make them, and use them for exactly that.Other of what people in Solo would call "cis", she has no name for, and does not recognise; these are the "cis" that resemble an angkus.

The item that you have posted a pic of, I personally would hesitate to call a cis, but probably some people in Solo would give it that name.

In fact, in Javanese, the word "cis" does have the meaning of "angkus".

I'm sure you have noted that when I posted the image of what I know as a "cis", I wrote:-

"Here is an image of what I know as a cis."

I did not write:-

"Here is an image of a cis."

I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish.

I have a few of these cis of both types. I'm not exactly sure where they are at the moment, but if I can locate them I will post some more pictures.

ganjawulung · 17th July 2007, 05:59 AM

Dear All,
This is only displaying cuts of pamor from only one side blade of my whatever name of weapon. (The size of the blade is one hasta, or around 50 centimeters). The motives of pamor (beras wutah) seemingly match with the size of narrow field of the blade. Quite fine beras wutah. I don't even think, whether this whatever weapon is a remanufactured-weapon or not...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 19th July 2007, 07:24 PM

Dhapur "Brojol" with pamor "tunggak semi" (sprouting bud), and dhapur "tilamupih" with pamor "kupu tarung" (fighting butterfly). Both with Yogyanese hilts...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 20th July 2007, 03:48 AM

Almost every collector who collect Javanese kerises in Java, know this popular dhapur "sabuk inten" (diamond belted), with 11 luks. As popular as Nagasasra (mostly thirteen luks, with naga or dragon relief). For comparison, I show you the dhapur "sengkelat" (thirteen luks) with almost similar "ricikan" (details) -- only differed by luks number... (The sengkelat with Solonese hilt is from 21th century, and the Sabuk Inten with Yogyanese hilt supposed to be from Mataram era. Or say it, keris with Mataram style)

The wood of the "branggah" style sheath is quite rare. It is from "nagasari" wood (Messua ferrea Linn.). Nagasari tree, is believed, came from part of India. The name of origin is "nagakesara". Or maybe in Malay, you may call it as "penaga lilin, penaga putih or penaga suga. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Ganjawulung

BluErf · 26th July 2007, 04:33 PM

This may come a bit late, but I wish to say that I greatly enjoyed the pictures posted. I have always liked beautifully-grained wood turned into excellent sheaths and hilts, sometimes at the expense of the blade.

A big thank you to Pak Ganja for sharing.

ganjawulung · 28th July 2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

This may come a bit late, but I wish to say that I greatly enjoyed the pictures posted. I have always liked beautifully-grained wood turned into excellent sheaths and hilts, sometimes at the expense of the blade.

A big thank you to Pak Ganja for sharing.

Dear BluErf,
And sometimes, the keris sheath is more "expensive" than the keris... In Jogjakarta, the keris sheath made of "timoho" wood with "pelet ngingrim" (ngingrim motive, it is difficult to say this motive in words) is as valuable as a keris itself...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 28th July 2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.

I found and example of a cis -- or more exactly, "cis and taji" -- in Karaton Solo's Museum (The Solo Palace Museum) just in the outer inside part of karaton. (Please see the picture, and the name tag below the special weapon).

Cis, according to this court information, is straight in form. And "taji" (cock's spur or curved nail of a cock) is curved in form. And the use of this weapon is for elephant-soldier...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 28th July 2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear BluErf,
And sometimes, the keris sheath is more "expensive" than the keris... In Jogjakarta, the keris sheath made of "timoho" wood with "pelet ngingrim" (ngingrim motive, it is difficult to say this motive in words) is as valuable as a keris itself...

Ganjawulung

I agree as well. I have a piece in my collection, which sheath is more expensive than the blade itself... I believe some of us have ensemble that are like that. But the end result, is very satisfying... I sure.

As for the timoho wood you described, it should look pretty impressive... if you don't mind, can we have a look, please?

ganjawulung · 28th July 2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

As for the timoho wood you described, it should look pretty impressive... if you don't mind, can we have a look, please?

Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 28th July 2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I found and example of a cis -- or more exactly, "cis and taji" -- in Karaton Solo's Museum (The Solo Palace Museum) just in the outer inside part of karaton. (Please see the picture, and the name tag below the special weapon).

Cis, according to this court information, is straight in form. And "taji" (cock's spur or curved nail of a cock) is curved in form. And the use of this weapon is for elephant-soldier...

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,

That looks like an ankus, elephant goad to me. How long is the handle?
When used by a man riding on the elephant, the handle is normally short. When used by a man walking beside the elephant, the handles are longer about 5 feet long but the hook is smaller.

Alam Shah · 28th July 2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

Ganjawulung

Excellent! Thanks for sharing.

ganjawulung · 28th July 2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

That looks like an ankus, elephant goad to me. How long is the handle?
When used by a man riding on the elephant, the handle is normally short. When used by a man walking beside the elephant, the handles are longer about 5 feet long but the hook is smaller.

Not too long,
I think it is the type of one "pengadeg" landeyan (spear-handle). One pengadeg is the same size of a standing man with hand straight upward...

Ganjawulung

Marcokeris · 29th July 2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

Ganjawulung

Yes, very hard to find a timoho sembur

.... mybe next time in Yogya i will be more lucky

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2007, 11:53 PM

Pak Ganja, I fear that you may have been just slightly misled; I'm afraid your court informant was a little deficient in his knowledge.

The photo of the implement and signage from the karaton musium is in itself misleading. If you are able to investigate this matter, you will find that the cis of which you show a photo was previously displayed along with some taji. It would seem that the taji have been removed, leaving only the cis , however, the sign has not been altered.

Your photo shows an excellent example of a cis.The cis is not a weapon, it is an angkus, used to control an elephant.

The taji that used to be displayed were the ones used on animals when they were matched against one another, or against macan tutul. They were used mainly on goats in these matches, and the taji were mounted on a frame that strapped to the goat's head. You can still see examples of these taji in the Musium Radyapustaka, on Slamet Riyadi, just near Sriwedari. There's probably some cis there too.

As you have indicated the word "taji" is associated with fighting cocks, however, its usual usage is not for the cock's natural spur, rather, it is used to refer to the steel spur that is bound to the cock's foot when they fight.These spurs are straight, or sometimes waved like a keris blade,but they are not curved, and most definitely not curved to the extent of the hook-like blade of a cis.

ganjawulung · 30th July 2007, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Ganja, I fear that you may have been just slightly misled; I'm afraid your court informant was a little deficient in his knowledge.

The photo of the implement and signage from the karaton musium is in itself misleading. If you are able to investigate this matter, you will find that the cis of which you show a photo was previously displayed along with some taji. It would seem that the taji have been removed, leaving only the cis , however, the sign has not been altered.

Dear Alan,
What I saw in the Karaton museum was, a solely tombak in a single cupboard, closed with fixed glass. And just in the foot of the tombak, was a single name-tag for a single object in the solely cupboard.

If according to you, this "court informant" was a little deficient in "his" knowledge, then.. It is beyond my capability and capasity to say that the info was not right...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2007, 02:37 AM

Be this as it may Pak Ganja, but I am talking observed fact here.

Going back some years cis and taji were on exhibit in the karaton musium. I really do not care what the sign says that you photographed:- that sign is wrong, if it was referring to a single object, that object is a cis.

If you recieved an explanation from a guide, or attendant, or from anybody else, for that matter, the person who provided the explanation was wrong.

I am not seeking agreement from you, nor am I seeking concensus.

I attempted to correct the false information as gently as I could. I am now saying very plainly that the information that you were provided with was wrong.

To check the correctness of what I am saying, one does not need to have extreme depth of knowledge in this field. All that is required is to go to a good Javanese dictionary and one will find it spelled out.

Pak Ganja, you are Javanese, I am not. However, one does not need to be Javanese to know that it is a cultural trait of the Javanese people that when a question is asked, an answer will often be given without regard for the correctness of that answer, simply to try to ensure that the person who asked the question will not be disappointed by not receiving an answer.

You tried your best to obtain a correct answer, but the person whom you asked provided you with incorrect information.

ganjawulung · 30th July 2007, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.

Dear Alan,
Excuse me if I'm misunderstood. Is an angkus is weapon for elephant? And harpoon is weapon for fishing? Is a cis, meant for elephant and also fish? If for elephant, for what purpose? Killing? Would you like to inform me please...

Ganjawulung

David · 30th July 2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The cis is not a weapon, it is an angkus, used to control an elephant.

I don 't mean to speak for Alan here, but it would seem that he already answered this question in a previous post.

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2007, 03:42 AM

No Pak Ganja, I beg you to please forgive me.

Apparently my use of language has been insufficiently clear. I dealt with this matter previously, but apparently I dealt with it in an inadequate fashion.

I will try again.

A cis is an ankus.

An ankus is a tool used to guide and control an elephant; such a tool is probably correctly named as a goad.

An ankus is not a weapon.

A harpoon is a tool used to spear whales, crocodiles and big fish. Strictly speaking this is also not a weapon.

A weapon is an implement which is used for fighting.

Here I quote my previous post of 17th July:- I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish.

Again I beg your forgiveness for being so imprecise and inadequate in the use of my own native language that I was unable to present information in a clear manner, in addition I feel that I must also ask your indulgence for causing you to waste so much of your valuable time on such an inconsequential matter.

ganjawulung · 30th July 2007, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Again I beg your forgiveness for being so imprecise and inadequate in the use of my own native language that I was unable to present information in a clear manner, in addition I feel that I must also ask your indulgence for causing you to waste so much of your valuable time on such an inconsequential matter.

Thank you Alan,
Your explanation gives me clear information about the meaning of the word "angkus". (I didn't find this word in my English dictionary). That's why I ask you explanation.

I found this example in museum, not by intention. I was just seeing the collections of the museum in Solo last week, and coincidentally saw this "elephant goad".

Thanks a lot, Alan
Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2007, 04:38 AM

If you cannot find "angkus", try "ankus". I've seen it spelled in both ways, and I'm not quite sure which is correct.

ganjawulung · 30th July 2007, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If you cannot find "angkus", try "ankus". I've seen it spelled in both ways, and I'm not quite sure which is correct.

Thanks Alan,
I try to find it, either in bigger Longmans, Webster, Collin Cobuild dictionary, later.

Ganjawulung

16th July 2007, 08:33 AM	#33
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Trembalo These are more pictures on keris sheaths made of "trembalo" wood, with different chatoyance. One Yogya gayaman with old silver pendhok, "bunton" type with "alas-alasan" motive (forest motive). And the other one is keris sheath, iras (one piece of wood) Yogya gayaman -- with brass pendhok, slewah or blewahan type. Ganjawulung Attached Images

17th July 2007, 05:59 AM	#40
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear All, This is only displaying cuts of pamor from only one side blade of my whatever name of weapon. (The size of the blade is one hasta, or around 50 centimeters). The motives of pamor (beras wutah) seemingly match with the size of narrow field of the blade. Quite fine beras wutah. I don't even think, whether this whatever weapon is a remanufactured-weapon or not... Ganjawulung Attached Images

19th July 2007, 07:24 PM	#41
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Tunggak Semi Dhapur "Brojol" with pamor "tunggak semi" (sprouting bud), and dhapur "tilamupih" with pamor "kupu tarung" (fighting butterfly). Both with Yogyanese hilts... Ganjawulung Attached Images

20th July 2007, 03:48 AM	#42
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Sabuk Inten Almost every collector who collect Javanese kerises in Java, know this popular dhapur "sabuk inten" (diamond belted), with 11 luks. As popular as Nagasasra (mostly thirteen luks, with naga or dragon relief). For comparison, I show you the dhapur "sengkelat" (thirteen luks) with almost similar "ricikan" (details) -- only differed by luks number... (The sengkelat with Solonese hilt is from 21th century, and the Sabuk Inten with Yogyanese hilt supposed to be from Mataram era. Or say it, keris with Mataram style) The wood of the "branggah" style sheath is quite rare. It is from "nagasari" wood (Messua ferrea Linn.). Nagasari tree, is believed, came from part of India. The name of origin is "nagakesara". Or maybe in Malay, you may call it as "penaga lilin, penaga putih or penaga suga. Correct me if I'm wrong... Ganjawulung Attached Images

16th July 2007, 07:02 AM	#31
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	I rather suspect that this blade could be something re-manufactured from a pedang blade, specifically for use in its original fittings.

16th July 2007, 08:59 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Pak Ganja, you have it in your hand, I do not, if you say it is asli, then it is asli. However, it is a non-typical form, it is long rather than short, of light cross section, and it has a flat tang. In my experience, this type of blade is very likely to be re-manufactured. It is a waste of time looking at it to try to guess if it has been re-manufactured or not, it could have been done over 100 years ago, re-forged, cut and then reforged again.Let me start with a normal pedang suduk,and I could produce this blade , including the apparently thin slorok, myself. But let me put it another way:- if came across this blade in the market place, I would assume it was re-manufactured and the price I paid for it would be based on that assumption. Still, if you are convinced it is asli, then I bow to the wisdom of your judgement.

16th July 2007, 03:28 PM	#35
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Pak Ganja, The type of weapon called "cis" you mentioned was as you said tangguh Mataram. May I ask who normally used it in the past - whether he was king, courtiers, Pangerans, Palace guards etc? How it was worn as definitely the bearer must also wear at least a keris?

17th July 2007, 12:45 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Pak Ganja, I beg your forgiveness because of my continuing pursuit of this trivial matter. I myself have often taken the position that in respect of South East Asian weaponry, names of the weapons, and for that matter other things, are not particularly important, because of the indisputable fact that names change from area to area, town to town, and village to village. However, if we accept that this blade, which you originally described as a "cis", is indeed an old weapon, that was forged in its present mechanically inadequate form from the outset, and that we feel it may be appropriate to attribute it to Lombok as a "tempius", then let us look at what Pak Djelengga says about the tempius:- "--- the form of the blade is round or square,there are also (ones) like a blimbing which have three corners (edges), four , or many corners (edges).---" Pak Djelengga does not say that a tempius can have a flat blade with two edges, nor an ovoid blade; he is quite clear:- a tempius may have a round blade, or a blade with three or more edges. Therefore, just as you have so wisely disqualified this "cis" as a "sendirung", because it has no metuk, I feel we must also disqualify it as a "tempius", because it has a blade of incorrect cross section. Thus, we are left with a longish blade of light construction with a flat tang , not designed to withstand side pressures. This blade is made from old material , and it came in an old, broken , walking stick. Please understand, I am not challenging the knowledge and judgement of either you, or your friends, when you tell us that this piece of wesi aji is without doubt in the form in which it was originally forged. I am certain that both you and your friends could mount an extremely convincing argument, possibly complete with evidence, that would dispel all doubt in respect of the correctness of your individual and joint opinions. So, if you say that this blade is original in all respects I accept without reservation that this is your opinion. Equally, I accept that it might be difficult to prove that this exquisite piece of wesi aji never occupied a place of honour in the walking stick of a ruler. So since we cannot disprove this proposal, let us all accept it as a possibility. I must say, this approach to the study the Javanese culture and its weaponry is certainly more interesting than the humourless pursuit of facts. After all, what are facts? Only those things that most people believe. And we all know that the vast majority of people are easily led.

17th July 2007, 04:56 AM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Pak Ganja, I do not know of any book reference on cis. I have the name from various people that I know, and have known , in Solo. My wife, who comes from East Jawa , calls some of these things "pancing buaya", which name she got from her father who used to make them, and use them for exactly that.Other of what people in Solo would call "cis", she has no name for, and does not recognise; these are the "cis" that resemble an angkus. The item that you have posted a pic of, I personally would hesitate to call a cis, but probably some people in Solo would give it that name. In fact, in Javanese, the word "cis" does have the meaning of "angkus". I'm sure you have noted that when I posted the image of what I know as a "cis", I wrote:- "Here is an image of what I know as a cis." I did not write:- "Here is an image of a cis." I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish. I have a few of these cis of both types. I'm not exactly sure where they are at the moment, but if I can locate them I will post some more pictures.

26th July 2007, 04:33 PM	#43
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	This may come a bit late, but I wish to say that I greatly enjoyed the pictures posted. I have always liked beautifully-grained wood turned into excellent sheaths and hilts, sometimes at the expense of the blade. A big thank you to Pak Ganja for sharing.

29th July 2007, 11:53 PM	#52
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Pak Ganja, I fear that you may have been just slightly misled; I'm afraid your court informant was a little deficient in his knowledge. The photo of the implement and signage from the karaton musium is in itself misleading. If you are able to investigate this matter, you will find that the cis of which you show a photo was previously displayed along with some taji. It would seem that the taji have been removed, leaving only the cis , however, the sign has not been altered. Your photo shows an excellent example of a cis.The cis is not a weapon, it is an angkus, used to control an elephant. The taji that used to be displayed were the ones used on animals when they were matched against one another, or against macan tutul. They were used mainly on goats in these matches, and the taji were mounted on a frame that strapped to the goat's head. You can still see examples of these taji in the Musium Radyapustaka, on Slamet Riyadi, just near Sriwedari. There's probably some cis there too. As you have indicated the word "taji" is associated with fighting cocks, however, its usual usage is not for the cock's natural spur, rather, it is used to refer to the steel spur that is bound to the cock's foot when they fight.These spurs are straight, or sometimes waved like a keris blade,but they are not curved, and most definitely not curved to the extent of the hook-like blade of a cis.

30th July 2007, 02:37 AM	#54
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Be this as it may Pak Ganja, but I am talking observed fact here. Going back some years cis and taji were on exhibit in the karaton musium. I really do not care what the sign says that you photographed:- that sign is wrong, if it was referring to a single object, that object is a cis. If you recieved an explanation from a guide, or attendant, or from anybody else, for that matter, the person who provided the explanation was wrong. I am not seeking agreement from you, nor am I seeking concensus. I attempted to correct the false information as gently as I could. I am now saying very plainly that the information that you were provided with was wrong. To check the correctness of what I am saying, one does not need to have extreme depth of knowledge in this field. All that is required is to go to a good Javanese dictionary and one will find it spelled out. Pak Ganja, you are Javanese, I am not. However, one does not need to be Javanese to know that it is a cultural trait of the Javanese people that when a question is asked, an answer will often be given without regard for the correctness of that answer, simply to try to ensure that the person who asked the question will not be disappointed by not receiving an answer. You tried your best to obtain a correct answer, but the person whom you asked provided you with incorrect information.

30th July 2007, 03:42 AM	#57
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	No Pak Ganja, I beg you to please forgive me. Apparently my use of language has been insufficiently clear. I dealt with this matter previously, but apparently I dealt with it in an inadequate fashion. I will try again. A cis is an ankus. An ankus is a tool used to guide and control an elephant; such a tool is probably correctly named as a goad. An ankus is not a weapon. A harpoon is a tool used to spear whales, crocodiles and big fish. Strictly speaking this is also not a weapon. A weapon is an implement which is used for fighting. Here I quote my previous post of 17th July:- I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish. Again I beg your forgiveness for being so imprecise and inadequate in the use of my own native language that I was unable to present information in a clear manner, in addition I feel that I must also ask your indulgence for causing you to waste so much of your valuable time on such an inconsequential matter.

30th July 2007, 04:38 AM	#59
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	If you cannot find "angkus", try "ankus". I've seen it spelled in both ways, and I'm not quite sure which is correct.