Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th October 2010, 02:51 PM   #61
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for deleting those posts containing erraneous thoughts that were not mine! You sure did a great job.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2010, 03:02 PM   #62
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock; 19th October 2010 at 11:42 AM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2010, 04:31 PM   #63
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default Touchhole and Shutting Lug on the 'Cartridge' of a Breech-Loading Pistol of ca. 1540

Author's photos taken in the Hofrüstkammer Vienna.
Attached Images
 
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2010, 11:09 AM   #64
Swordfish
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael
Hallo,

The chambers or cartidges of breech loading handguns were not loded with powder and plug. The attached photo is taken from an article of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen und Kostümkunde (Volume 9 of 1922, No.4), a standard work on arms and armour, which should be familiar to any who can read German. The photo shows two chambers of breech loading handguns of the 15th Century in the collection of the Berlin armoury. Both chambers contain the original charge of powder and lead bullet. This is a clear indication that at least chambers of small bore were loaded with a lead bullet, and the bullet was not pushed awkward in the rear of the barrel before inserting the chamber.

Best wishes

Susi
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando; 1st November 2010 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Dispensable mode of introduction
Swordfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 05:24 PM   #65
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Susi and welcome here,

Thank you for your interesting input from the Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde. I have been a member of their society for 30 years and own all their volumes from 1897 thru 2010.

First, these are by no means exchangebale breeches for 'handguns' but for cannon! Portable handguns of the 15th century had small bores of ca. 12-16 mm and their breech chamber never had handles; they had no grips at all and and an overall length of only ca. 6-8 cm. Please cf. the measurements of the 1540 Passau arquebus breech chamber you cited!

Second, these seem to be exceptions to the rule. For these unregulated ages, almost anything was possible in general. As I noted though earlier in this thread, we know of other loaded breech loading cannon chambers only containing powder and wooden plug, and attached I repost my own photos of one of them. The rest of the original handle can bee seen.
Similar ones were found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, sunken in 1545, also just loaded with powder and plug.

'Nando, my dear friend, would you mind posting good images and measurements of your ca. 1440 fine cannon chamber as this is almost identical to the ones preserved in Berlin?

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
    
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 06:16 PM   #66
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

There you are
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus

.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 06:47 PM   #67
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Thank you, 'Nando,

And congratulations!

Best,
Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 06:53 PM   #68
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Another argument for my theory that breechloading cannon chambers did not normally contain the ball:

As we can see, most of them taper and narrow towards the fore end, in order to be shoved into the barrel and tightly fit. So I think that, had they contained to ball, the latter would have been of too small caliber to match the barrel.

Any comments much welcome!

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 07:04 PM   #69
Swordfish
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
There you are
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus

.

Hallo,

it doesn`t matter if these are chambers of small cannons, the
interesting fact is that they were loaded with a bullet. If even
chambers of cannons were loaded in this way, surely the
chambers of small handguns, where the chamber and barrel
have exactly the same bore, were loaded with a bullet.

Best wishes
Swordfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 08:28 PM   #70
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted?

m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2010, 08:37 PM   #71
Swordfish
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted?

m
I have never expressed any doubt that chambers of cannons were
loaded with a plug. I refer always to chambers of handguns.
Confused ?
Swordfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2010, 12:05 AM   #72
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Oh yes, I definitely am.

Any evidence produced?

And why, in your opinion, should breech loading of handguns differ from cannon?

m

Last edited by Matchlock; 2nd November 2010 at 12:22 AM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2010, 02:54 AM   #73
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Swordfish,

Are you there?!

m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 07:41 AM   #74
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

Does anybody have photos of these breech-loading handgonne?

"breech loading handgonne, chamber missing, late 1400's. length 1,460 mm, cal 18 mm "
from
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 02:58 PM   #75
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Hi Alexander.
Is this the same thing?
This is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 03:24 PM   #76
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

Thank you, Fernando!
Quote:
his is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.
Yes, I am interesting in... My e-mail is Spiridonov12@yandex.ru
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 07:11 PM   #77
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.

Last edited by fernando; 15th November 2010 at 08:00 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 07:55 PM   #78
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Is this the same thing?
.
No, 'Nando,

It's another but very similiar item, and your scans are great, thank you so much!

I attach a better image of the gun Alexender meant.

Best,
Michl
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Matchlock; 15th November 2010 at 08:12 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 08:09 PM   #79
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.
Thank you. I have got it . Thanks for Michael too
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 08:24 PM   #80
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... and your scans are great, thank you so much! ...
Have you got the article were tey came from, Michl ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 10:07 PM   #81
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

No, 'Nando,

I don't.

So please try and mail me the document as well.

Best,
Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2010, 10:23 PM   #82
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

On its way, Michl.
Hope it works.


DONE !
Please confirm when you get it.


.

Last edited by fernando; 15th November 2010 at 10:54 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2010, 05:42 AM   #83
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

Michael, I can dowload it at my FTP if you need...
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2010, 09:53 PM   #84
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Thank you so much, 'Nando,

I received it.

Had you told me that is was all about a series of articles in the ZWHK, I could have spared you a lot of time because I got all the original volumes and have been a member of the society for more than 30 years.

Thank you as much, Alexender, for your kind offer!

Some select assessments and termination in these articles by now have become obsolete.

Best,
Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2010, 04:37 PM   #85
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

We may see the thickening in the form of balls on these stock. It is a very common element of staffs in XV century.
Attached Images
      
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2010, 04:38 PM   #86
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Default

else
Attached Images
      

Last edited by Spiridonov; 1st December 2010 at 04:48 PM.
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2010, 01:36 AM   #87
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Perfectly right, Alexander,

Your input clearly confirms the theory I formlerly posted stating that all contemporary works of arts and crafts unanimously reflected the style common to the respective period - in short: Gothic gun barrels generally looked like contemporary architectural towers and columns!

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2011, 12:11 AM   #88
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

A wrought-iron breech-loading ship cannon, ca. 1480-1500.

m
Attached Images
      
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2011, 12:18 AM   #89
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Two Portuguese bronze breech-loading cannon pieces, early 16th c. each, and obviously two from a series.

m
Attached Images
      
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2011, 05:02 AM   #90
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

HERE ARE A FEW MORE PICTURES, HOPEFULLY NOT POSTED ALREADY., TWO PICTURES OF A OLD PRINT. AND DRAWING SHOWING LOAD FOR GUN.
Attached Images
   
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.