French? Cavalry Sword

templarnight · 23rd October 2015, 04:54 PM

Hi

Can anyone help me ID this Sword. Its very heavy and the Blade and Scabbard have matching numbers.

The Hilt is solid cast Brass and has insignia depicting two crossed Lances with 'N IV'. I havent been able to find this Hilt anywhere?

templarnight · 25th October 2015, 12:55 AM

Any ideas?

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2015, 11:26 PM

While I have almost embarrassingly limited familiarity with French edged weapons, and only a single book on them, I am not afraid to at least try to offer some kind of suggestion or check any resources I can find.

My first inclination of course and as noted, would be this might be French 1st Empire, due to the seemingly Phrygian capped figure in the familiar neoclassic theme. Then, with the brass hilt, ecusson block with insignia (?) and alternating quillons, it seems 'other ranks' such as perhaps a sappers sword. However, the known examples of these are with either chicken or eagle head, straight quillons and blade with serrated saw back (as pioneers).
The scabbards were leather, not standard carry ring metal.

The blade on this seems very British M1796 light cavalry, but of course, there is nothing British with this hilt or its theme.

While the crossed lances suggest of course cavalry unit, this type of open brass hilt is not of cavalry forms of early 19th c. and the apparent regt. designation 'N' and 'IV' returns to 'French 1st Empire'(?)
One of the sappers swords has letters 'NK' but engraved on blade, interesting...but not much help.

The deeply stamped numbers on the blade back and scabbard throat seem inventory or lot/contract/ issue type recordings, contrary to French but more like German or East European military stampings.

So, just thinking out loud here, and establishing rather, what this is not.
What it is becomes an interesting conundrum with these conflicting elements , but hopefully someone else out there has seen something similar. My research has fallen woefully short, but I hope someone else with better familiarity with these brass hilt other ranks type swords will chime in.

The French 'Empires' and 'Republics' seem to have been keen on regalia, and this theme may have been carried to some kind of commemorative group or fraternity with swords of this kind being created. Who can forget the curious French military academy swords of around 1st Empire? etc.

Sorry to not have better answer, but I find posts without any response at all very disappointing.

Shakethetrees · 30th October 2015, 05:32 AM

The crudeness of the hilt decoration seem to me to point away from a French origin.

The lances, without the triangles representing guidons, resemble toothpicks. He recesses of the face still have the rough, as cast, sand cast texture.

Even with their OR blades of known form the details were picked out with much more detail.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2015, 07:31 PM

Well noted, and true the casting and execution is pretty crude. Obviously the 'lances' are far from convincing, and most military representations of these in uniforms etc. have at least a furl or something beyond a crude triangle.
The neo classic figure on the pommel keeps reminding me of 'Mercury' with the wings on the hat (though these are flattened).
I cannot imagine what the N and IV would be for.

What seems distinct is the scabbard and blade, of 1796 style but perhaps German, as these type numeric and letter seem of the often complex regimental and unit designations used by them. With this numbering present it brings to mind perhaps some sort of 'after market' production of this strange hilt using the blade and scabbard of a military sword.

That seems like a lot of difficulty for such an endeavor, which is even more questionable with even the spacer present, but returning to the idea of fraternal or other organizations possible if numbers of these required.
The more I look at this of course, the more I feel I have seen something like it before

kronckew · 7th November 2015, 11:03 PM

reminds me of a bandsman's sabre (1st with 2-ring scabbard) or a cavalry bugler's sabre (2nd with leather scabbard). maybe a lancer regimental bugler's sabre?

(not mine

)

Valjhun · 8th November 2015, 01:23 AM

My guess would be British, judging the scabbard features, perhaps cavalry bandsman, like Kronckew already suggested. There seems to be something on the back of the hilt. Can you post a photo?

templarnight · 3rd January 2016, 08:57 PM

Sorry for not replying sooner.

Please find a picture of the Back of the Hilt...

23rd October 2015, 04:54 PM	#1
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	French? Cavalry Sword Hi Can anyone help me ID this Sword. Its very heavy and the Blade and Scabbard have matching numbers. The Hilt is solid cast Brass and has insignia depicting two crossed Lances with 'N IV'. I havent been able to find this Hilt anywhere? Attached Images

7th November 2015, 11:03 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	reminds me of a bandsman's sabre (1st with 2-ring scabbard) or a cavalry bugler's sabre (2nd with leather scabbard). maybe a lancer regimental bugler's sabre? (not mine ) Attached Images

3rd January 2016, 08:57 PM	#8
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Sorry for not replying sooner. Please find a picture of the Back of the Hilt... Attached Images

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25th October 2015, 12:55 AM	#2
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Any ideas?

29th October 2015, 11:26 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	While I have almost embarrassingly limited familiarity with French edged weapons, and only a single book on them, I am not afraid to at least try to offer some kind of suggestion or check any resources I can find. My first inclination of course and as noted, would be this might be French 1st Empire, due to the seemingly Phrygian capped figure in the familiar neoclassic theme. Then, with the brass hilt, ecusson block with insignia (?) and alternating quillons, it seems 'other ranks' such as perhaps a sappers sword. However, the known examples of these are with either chicken or eagle head, straight quillons and blade with serrated saw back (as pioneers). The scabbards were leather, not standard carry ring metal. The blade on this seems very British M1796 light cavalry, but of course, there is nothing British with this hilt or its theme. While the crossed lances suggest of course cavalry unit, this type of open brass hilt is not of cavalry forms of early 19th c. and the apparent regt. designation 'N' and 'IV' returns to 'French 1st Empire'(?) One of the sappers swords has letters 'NK' but engraved on blade, interesting...but not much help. The deeply stamped numbers on the blade back and scabbard throat seem inventory or lot/contract/ issue type recordings, contrary to French but more like German or East European military stampings. So, just thinking out loud here, and establishing rather, what this is not. What it is becomes an interesting conundrum with these conflicting elements , but hopefully someone else out there has seen something similar. My research has fallen woefully short, but I hope someone else with better familiarity with these brass hilt other ranks type swords will chime in. The French 'Empires' and 'Republics' seem to have been keen on regalia, and this theme may have been carried to some kind of commemorative group or fraternity with swords of this kind being created. Who can forget the curious French military academy swords of around 1st Empire? etc. Sorry to not have better answer, but I find posts without any response at all very disappointing.

30th October 2015, 05:32 AM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The crudeness of the hilt decoration seem to me to point away from a French origin. The lances, without the triangles representing guidons, resemble toothpicks. He recesses of the face still have the rough, as cast, sand cast texture. Even with their OR blades of known form the details were picked out with much more detail.

30th October 2015, 07:31 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	Well noted, and true the casting and execution is pretty crude. Obviously the 'lances' are far from convincing, and most military representations of these in uniforms etc. have at least a furl or something beyond a crude triangle. The neo classic figure on the pommel keeps reminding me of 'Mercury' with the wings on the hat (though these are flattened). I cannot imagine what the N and IV would be for. What seems distinct is the scabbard and blade, of 1796 style but perhaps German, as these type numeric and letter seem of the often complex regimental and unit designations used by them. With this numbering present it brings to mind perhaps some sort of 'after market' production of this strange hilt using the blade and scabbard of a military sword. That seems like a lot of difficulty for such an endeavor, which is even more questionable with even the spacer present, but returning to the idea of fraternal or other organizations possible if numbers of these required. The more I look at this of course, the more I feel I have seen something like it before

8th November 2015, 01:23 AM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	My guess would be British, judging the scabbard features, perhaps cavalry bandsman, like Kronckew already suggested. There seems to be something on the back of the hilt. Can you post a photo?