Padsumbalin Panabas...

Spunjer · 5th December 2004, 10:45 PM

...just ended on eBay.

"i did my best, but i guess my best wasn't good enuff..."

pretty cool piece, tho.

Ian · 5th December 2004, 11:49 PM

but top dollar. A good solid panabas of unusual form. Prices do seem to be on the rise again for the less common Moro weapons.

Ian.

Spunjer · 6th December 2004, 12:00 AM

it was $99.00 up until 3 this afternoon. and i really thought i was going to get it

VANDOO · 6th December 2004, 05:43 AM

A NICE LOOKING PANABAS! I WAS NEVER ABLE TO WIN A PANABUS ON EBAY BUT FINALLY FOUND ONE AT A GUN SHOW THAT I COULD AFFORD. ALL THE THINGS I USED TO COLLECT ON EBAY HAVE WENT OUT OF MY RANGE OR ARE ALWAYS LOST AT THE LAST SECOND SO I SELDOM LOOK OR TRY THESE DAYS. MORE FOR YOU GUYS

Battara · 6th December 2004, 04:22 PM

Not surprised that it went for that much. Could have gone for higher. Vandoo is right, rare type of panabas and the rarer Moro pieces go now for much higher. Mine is now worth at least twice as much or more.

Vandoo and I have commiserated about this before, how earlier on we could win things on eBay occassionally, but now never. I have not won anything on eBay in 4 or 5 years.

Anything I get now is exclusively at gun and knife shows. The nice thing is that you get to handle a piece before purchase.

STill I try on eBay, though I get the stuffings beaten out of me like a baby harbor seal.

(Ouch).

Spunjer · 7th December 2004, 12:34 AM

see my avatar? i won that on ebay (hi battara

) so you see, it is still possible...

zelbone · 7th December 2004, 03:15 AM

Decent panbases are hard to find. Dealers are your best bet, but you have to pay dealer prices which sometimes is comparable to eBay considering the demand and competition for rarer Moro pieces. I picked up a few years ago a decent old panabas on eBay sort of mis-listed as a "Pacific Dagger." I got it at a steal considering I've paid more for a few of my gunongs

. But maybe within the last year I lost out on a extremely rare and long double-edged padsumbalin panabas mis-listed as an "African Machete." I thought I had it locked since it was mislisted and the photo was not too great. That one went close to 4 digits

!!! I wasn't anywhere near that final bid. Oh well, back to the gun shows.

Federico · 7th December 2004, 05:39 PM

Found the ivory tip on the handle interesting. Makes me wonder how lavish some of these pieces once were. On examining the Panabas that I own, I can see evidence of former metal bands and butt-cap (there are nail holes visible from where these bands once were, as well as the shadow in the patina from where the bands were). Makes me wonder, as to what level of extravagence panabas rose to. Ive seen a few with metal bands, this is the first Ive seen with a ivory tip, but what other lavish touches are out there? I must admit, I have never really been into panabas, though after finally getting one I greatly regret that fact as it is a dream to handle, but I have generally only seen plainer panabas hilts on older pieces. Rattan wraps, occaisional carving (usually just Xs and lines), and sometimes plain iron bands. Has anyone who has seen more panabas, seen traditional examples (as we have all seen guady tourist versions) with lavish fittings?

Ian · 7th December 2004, 07:00 PM

Here are pictures of an older example that I posted some time ago on the old EEWRS Forum. This is probably a Tausug (Sulu) panabas, with a handle covered in brass rings that have some simple inscribed designs.

This one came from an old Philippines collection via a dealer in Manila whom I have known and bought from for more than 10 years. I am confident it is a 19th C. example based on the provenance provided by this dealer.

Ian.

Battara · 8th December 2004, 07:46 AM

Well I'm not saying mine has "ornate" bands, but they are white metal, unusual for a panabas still. It formally belonged to Cato and the spine of 15 "x"s is pictured in his book, p.92, photo #58.

Say, is it me or is there a theme?

So far, the ornate ones (excluding those used exclusively for war) appear to be what Cato calls the "scimitar" bladed types.

Federico · 8th December 2004, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Here are pictures of an older example that I posted some time ago on the old EEWRS Forum. This is probably a Tausug (Sulu) panabas, with a handle covered in brass rings that have some simple inscribed designs.

This one came from an old Philippines collection via a dealer in Manila whom I have known and bought from for more than 10 years. I am confident it is a 19th C. example based on the provenance provided by this dealer.

Ian.

I would be interested in knowing why you feel this is probably a Tausug panabas. Cato seems adamant in his book that the panabas that he could not find any concrete evidence that the weapon was used in the Sulu Sultanate.

Federico · 8th December 2004, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Say, is it me or is there a theme?

So far, the ornate ones (excluding those used exclusively for war) appear to be what Cato calls the "scimitar" bladed types.

Interesting observation, wish I could comment, but having not really seen or studied many panabas, I cant form an opinion as to trends, or if it is just our collections that is throwing off patterns. I would be curious to hear if this is other's experience as well.

Rick · 8th December 2004, 04:17 PM

Not much fancy work on either of these .
A small decorative carved band on the small one is about it .
No signs of former glory either .

MABAGANI · 8th December 2004, 05:32 PM

I heard there were a few of the elaborate panabas floating around in the early collecting days, pre ebay, not sure if Zel took a pic of the one in a private collection when he was out here, massive blade, like the lower one in Rick's pic but a longer, heavier version, finely carved hilt and intricate work done on a brass ferrule, dropping the weight of that blade alone could easily behead...
I can't validate the Sulu origin claim on the particular example, but I can pose a question, that if historically there were Iranun communities living in Jolo, wouldn't they likely use their own weaponry and would it constitute it as being used in the Sulu Sultanate? Under some circumstances, I'd say yes. Again, previous works by authors need to be reexamined and checked against other reliable sources.

Federico · 8th December 2004, 06:25 PM

Given the fluctuating state of the various Sultanates, I would not be surprised if there occured Iranun within the Sulu Sultanate that bore Panabas and Kampilan. So in that sense there is certainly plausibility that Panabas and Kampilan existed in the Sulu Sultanate, but yet that is specific to the Sultanate itself, which was a multi-tribal state, and not an attribution to Tausug or Samal, etc... I have never heard of Tausug using or making the weapon, and hence my curiousity at what leads to this identification, which to me would be very groundbreaking news indeed. Then of course there is the melting pot that is Zamboanga, and all the various mish-mashes of weaponry/culture that occur there.

Curious to know if Battara's observance of Padsumbalin/scimitar blade panabas occured more frequently in guadier dress. It would sound like at least one more of this type has been elaborately done.

Ian · 8th December 2004, 08:23 PM

The pictures posted above of the Tausug panabas were discussed extensively in a thread on the old EEWRS Forum found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001777.html

Basically, this panabas came from an old Philippine collection with a provenance that indicated a Tausug origin. The dealer from whom I bought this panabas is a person whom I trust and have no reason to doubt. We have done business for many years and he has never, to my knowledge, misled me on the more than 100 items I have obtained from him.

I talked at length with him about the Tausug attribution for this piece, and he was quite aware of how unusual such an attribution would be. Nevertheless, he was sure that it was Tausug based on his discussions with his distinguished, elderly Filipino client who had collected the panabas in the 1930s from Jolo. The sword was old when found in the 1930s, so I have some confidence that it is an example from the 19th C.

This sword was accompanied by several excellent old kris and barung from the same collection, but prices for those were higher ($1000+) and I was out of cash at the time.

Ian.

zelbone · 8th December 2004, 10:46 PM

Mabagani, I did take a photo of the panabas you are referring to. Beautiful example and pure joy to hold.

However, I like this photo of you with the panabas in Cato's book taken at Erik Farrow's

...

zelbone · 8th December 2004, 10:52 PM

Here's the pic of the panabas that Mabagani was referring to

kino · 8th December 2004, 11:38 PM

Here are some Panabas's that is in my collection. The Padsumbalin, the seller told me is the one in Cato's book.
The middle one has a okirred hilt of Mahogany with copper bands. It sports a pierced and engraved blade. The engravings are somewhat sharp which leads me to believe that it could have been recently done. But then again, maybe it was never used or handled much.
The third one has okirred bands of brass and what looks like to be silver, could be white brass, I can't tell the difference. The hilt is bamboo.

The blade on the middle one is 3/8" thick (closest to the hilt), the bottom one a hair short of 3/8" thick.
With multiple resizing and compressing, I hope the photos come out clear.

Any comments or estimates on their ages.

Ian · 9th December 2004, 04:24 AM

This one is a beast.

I picked it up several years ago in Manila. It weighs almost 8 lb! I doubt that it would be a very effective combat weapon, but it could certainly amputate or decapitate. This one has been used, as evidenced by knicks in the cutting edge and signs of sharpening. The edge is still very sharp.

The hilt has geometric designs incised into the wooden handle (with remnants of lime in the carved areas), and several metal and woven fiber bands holding the tang and hilt. The tang passes across the width of the handle and is about 10 inches long.

The blade has areas of staining in the main cutting area and a dark patina.

Overall length 41.5 inches, handle 21.5 inches, blade 21 inches. Thickness just in front of the hilt is 9/16 inch.

Probably late 19th C.

Battara · 9th December 2004, 10:23 AM

Although there is a little variety, the majority of panabas with fancy bands seem to be with the "scimitar" blade so far.

2 other notes:

a. Mabagani, now I know where half of the other Moro stuff on the market has gone

b. Spunjer, I love your avatar, has class and style

Spunjer · 9th December 2004, 11:50 AM

* makes sign of the cross after looking at all the panabases *

beautiful pieces guys. maybe one of these days i'll get to own one of those, too...

Ian · 9th December 2004, 01:55 PM

that I posted to the previous EEWRS site a few years ago. This one has a nicely carved hilt and still has its original blade guard intact. The blade on this one has a swollen edge, similar to some barung. Overall length 34 inches.

Ian.

Federico · 9th December 2004, 04:02 PM

Very nice pics, keep em coming guys. Its amazing to see the variety that are out there.

5th December 2004, 10:45 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Padsumbalin Panabas... ...just ended on eBay. "i did my best, but i guess my best wasn't good enuff..." pretty cool piece, tho.

5th December 2004, 11:49 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Nice panabas ... but top dollar. A good solid panabas of unusual form. Prices do seem to be on the rise again for the less common Moro weapons. Ian.

7th December 2004, 05:39 PM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Found the ivory tip on the handle interesting. Makes me wonder how lavish some of these pieces once were. On examining the Panabas that I own, I can see evidence of former metal bands and butt-cap (there are nail holes visible from where these bands once were, as well as the shadow in the patina from where the bands were). Makes me wonder, as to what level of extravagence panabas rose to. Ive seen a few with metal bands, this is the first Ive seen with a ivory tip, but what other lavish touches are out there? I must admit, I have never really been into panabas, though after finally getting one I greatly regret that fact as it is a dream to handle, but I have generally only seen plainer panabas hilts on older pieces. Rattan wraps, occaisional carving (usually just Xs and lines), and sometimes plain iron bands. Has anyone who has seen more panabas, seen traditional examples (as we have all seen guady tourist versions) with lavish fittings? Attached Images

7th December 2004, 07:00 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Sulu padsumbalin panabas Here are pictures of an older example that I posted some time ago on the old EEWRS Forum. This is probably a Tausug (Sulu) panabas, with a handle covered in brass rings that have some simple inscribed designs. This one came from an old Philippines collection via a dealer in Manila whom I have known and bought from for more than 10 years. I am confident it is a 19th C. example based on the provenance provided by this dealer. Ian. Attached Images

8th December 2004, 07:46 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Well I'm not saying mine has "ornate" bands, but they are white metal, unusual for a panabas still. It formally belonged to Cato and the spine of 15 "x"s is pictured in his book, p.92, photo #58. Say, is it me or is there a theme? So far, the ornate ones (excluding those used exclusively for war) appear to be what Cato calls the "scimitar" bladed types. Attached Images

6th December 2004, 12:00 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	it was $99.00 up until 3 this afternoon. and i really thought i was going to get it

6th December 2004, 05:43 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A NICE LOOKING PANABAS! I WAS NEVER ABLE TO WIN A PANABUS ON EBAY BUT FINALLY FOUND ONE AT A GUN SHOW THAT I COULD AFFORD. ALL THE THINGS I USED TO COLLECT ON EBAY HAVE WENT OUT OF MY RANGE OR ARE ALWAYS LOST AT THE LAST SECOND SO I SELDOM LOOK OR TRY THESE DAYS. MORE FOR YOU GUYS

6th December 2004, 04:22 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Not surprised that it went for that much. Could have gone for higher. Vandoo is right, rare type of panabas and the rarer Moro pieces go now for much higher. Mine is now worth at least twice as much or more. Vandoo and I have commiserated about this before, how earlier on we could win things on eBay occassionally, but now never. I have not won anything on eBay in 4 or 5 years. Anything I get now is exclusively at gun and knife shows. The nice thing is that you get to handle a piece before purchase. STill I try on eBay, though I get the stuffings beaten out of me like a baby harbor seal. (Ouch).

7th December 2004, 12:34 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	see my avatar? i won that on ebay (hi battara ) so you see, it is still possible...

7th December 2004, 03:15 AM	#7
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Decent panbases are hard to find. Dealers are your best bet, but you have to pay dealer prices which sometimes is comparable to eBay considering the demand and competition for rarer Moro pieces. I picked up a few years ago a decent old panabas on eBay sort of mis-listed as a "Pacific Dagger." I got it at a steal considering I've paid more for a few of my gunongs . But maybe within the last year I lost out on a extremely rare and long double-edged padsumbalin panabas mis-listed as an "African Machete." I thought I had it locked since it was mislisted and the photo was not too great. That one went close to 4 digits !!! I wasn't anywhere near that final bid. Oh well, back to the gun shows.

8th December 2004, 04:17 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	My Two Not much fancy work on either of these . A small decorative carved band on the small one is about it . No signs of former glory either . Attached Images

8th December 2004, 05:32 PM	#14
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I heard there were a few of the elaborate panabas floating around in the early collecting days, pre ebay, not sure if Zel took a pic of the one in a private collection when he was out here, massive blade, like the lower one in Rick's pic but a longer, heavier version, finely carved hilt and intricate work done on a brass ferrule, dropping the weight of that blade alone could easily behead... I can't validate the Sulu origin claim on the particular example, but I can pose a question, that if historically there were Iranun communities living in Jolo, wouldn't they likely use their own weaponry and would it constitute it as being used in the Sulu Sultanate? Under some circumstances, I'd say yes. Again, previous works by authors need to be reexamined and checked against other reliable sources.

8th December 2004, 06:25 PM	#15
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Given the fluctuating state of the various Sultanates, I would not be surprised if there occured Iranun within the Sulu Sultanate that bore Panabas and Kampilan. So in that sense there is certainly plausibility that Panabas and Kampilan existed in the Sulu Sultanate, but yet that is specific to the Sultanate itself, which was a multi-tribal state, and not an attribution to Tausug or Samal, etc... I have never heard of Tausug using or making the weapon, and hence my curiousity at what leads to this identification, which to me would be very groundbreaking news indeed. Then of course there is the melting pot that is Zamboanga, and all the various mish-mashes of weaponry/culture that occur there. Curious to know if Battara's observance of Padsumbalin/scimitar blade panabas occured more frequently in guadier dress. It would sound like at least one more of this type has been elaborately done.

8th December 2004, 08:23 PM	#16
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Tausug panabas The pictures posted above of the Tausug panabas were discussed extensively in a thread on the old EEWRS Forum found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001777.html Basically, this panabas came from an old Philippine collection with a provenance that indicated a Tausug origin. The dealer from whom I bought this panabas is a person whom I trust and have no reason to doubt. We have done business for many years and he has never, to my knowledge, misled me on the more than 100 items I have obtained from him. I talked at length with him about the Tausug attribution for this piece, and he was quite aware of how unusual such an attribution would be. Nevertheless, he was sure that it was Tausug based on his discussions with his distinguished, elderly Filipino client who had collected the panabas in the 1930s from Jolo. The sword was old when found in the 1930s, so I have some confidence that it is an example from the 19th C. This sword was accompanied by several excellent old kris and barung from the same collection, but prices for those were higher ($1000+) and I was out of cash at the time. Ian.

8th December 2004, 10:46 PM	#17
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Mabagani, I did take a photo of the panabas you are referring to. Beautiful example and pure joy to hold. However, I like this photo of you with the panabas in Cato's book taken at Erik Farrow's ... Attached Images

8th December 2004, 10:52 PM	#18
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Here's the pic of the panabas that Mabagani was referring to Attached Images

8th December 2004, 11:38 PM	#19
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 973	somewhat Lavish panabas' Here are some Panabas's that is in my collection. The Padsumbalin, the seller told me is the one in Cato's book. The middle one has a okirred hilt of Mahogany with copper bands. It sports a pierced and engraved blade. The engravings are somewhat sharp which leads me to believe that it could have been recently done. But then again, maybe it was never used or handled much. The third one has okirred bands of brass and what looks like to be silver, could be white brass, I can't tell the difference. The hilt is bamboo. The blade on the middle one is 3/8" thick (closest to the hilt), the bottom one a hair short of 3/8" thick. With multiple resizing and compressing, I hope the photos come out clear. Any comments or estimates on their ages. Attached Images

9th December 2004, 04:24 AM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Massive panabas This one is a beast. I picked it up several years ago in Manila. It weighs almost 8 lb! I doubt that it would be a very effective combat weapon, but it could certainly amputate or decapitate. This one has been used, as evidenced by knicks in the cutting edge and signs of sharpening. The edge is still very sharp. The hilt has geometric designs incised into the wooden handle (with remnants of lime in the carved areas), and several metal and woven fiber bands holding the tang and hilt. The tang passes across the width of the handle and is about 10 inches long. The blade has areas of staining in the main cutting area and a dark patina. Overall length 41.5 inches, handle 21.5 inches, blade 21 inches. Thickness just in front of the hilt is 9/16 inch. Probably late 19th C. Attached Images

9th December 2004, 10:23 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Although there is a little variety, the majority of panabas with fancy bands seem to be with the "scimitar" blade so far. 2 other notes: a. Mabagani, now I know where half of the other Moro stuff on the market has gone b. Spunjer, I love your avatar, has class and style

9th December 2004, 11:50 AM	#22
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	* makes sign of the cross after looking at all the panabases * beautiful pieces guys. maybe one of these days i'll get to own one of those, too...

9th December 2004, 01:55 PM	#23
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Another old one ... that I posted to the previous EEWRS site a few years ago. This one has a nicely carved hilt and still has its original blade guard intact. The blade on this one has a swollen edge, similar to some barung. Overall length 34 inches. Ian. Attached Images

9th December 2004, 04:02 PM	#24
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Very nice pics, keep em coming guys. Its amazing to see the variety that are out there.