Keris Identification

ferrylaki · 22nd November 2007, 03:15 AM

This keris is mine. the reason I bought this keris is for the timoho warangka and the nice dapur. seem to be in good shape.
I consider the dapur to be PASOPATI... I have no idea about the PAMOR.

I really have a bad feeling about the dapur. it might have been changed.
there for I really need your you opinion.

Regards,
FERRY

PenangsangII · 22nd November 2007, 06:50 AM

Any specific reason why you thought the dapor had been changed or modified? The keris looks very fine to me, and I like it very much also

ferrylaki · 22nd November 2007, 08:15 AM

a pasopati dapur usually has greneng and mine doesnt.
take a look at the ganja, buntut urang section, it might have greneng once.

From all keris pictures I've ever seen, keris with dapur pasopati always shows greneng.
How do you think about the pamor? what kind of pamor is it?
the pamor seen obvious in the centre of the blade, but thats all . not evidence of pamor on other section.

regards,
FERRY

PenangsangII · 22nd November 2007, 08:47 AM

Like you said Ferry, your pasopati used to have greneng though in your case I can see less significant one. Couldnt it be because years of washing? Judging from the steel - it looks old. Some say Pasopati was created during Kadewatan period which is older than Keris Buda...... Though your example definitely younger creation, IMHO, it has some age to it....I cant comment on the pamor that I've never seen before...

ferrylaki · 22nd November 2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Like you said Ferry, your pasopati used to have greneng though in your case I can see less significant one. Couldnt it be because years of washing? Judging from the steel - it looks old. Some say Pasopati was created during Kadewatan period which is older than Keris Buda...... Though your example definitely younger creation, IMHO, it has some age to it....I cant comment on the pamor that I've never seen before...

Thank you PenangsangII,
the pamor on the sor soran section shows a very smooth pamor which I ever seen on lar gangsir pamor. If the greneng was dissappear because of years of washing, the blade it self should be damage also.
Does the fracture between greneng and the warangka can cause the greneng become damage? we're talking abaut wooden warangka here.

I guess we can conclude that this keris have pamor that we cant mention what it is. I'm still curious abaut its pamor.

Well you're the only one who response to my thread.
Thank you very much PenangsangII.

FERRY

Alam Shah · 22nd November 2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

... Couldnt it be because years of washing? Judging from the steel - it looks old... Though your example definitely younger creation, IMHO, it has some age to it....I cant comment on the pamor that I've never seen before...

Hmmm... others might be able to help...

A. G. Maisey · 22nd November 2007, 10:31 PM

G'day Ferry,

I've lifted your full length blade pic and massaged it through Photoshop, but I'm sorry, I just cannot see enough detail to have a guess at the pamor.

In my opinion, and based upon what I can see in the photo, this is an old blade that has had the edges cleaned up, and has been reshaped.

Some people regard this as an undesirable practice, however, done skilfully, I do not. If an old blade is worth preserving, and this one is worth preserving, this is one way of ensuring its preservation. OK, its not a national treasure, but it is decent old blade, providing a shadow of its former self. There are two things you can do with a very deteriorated blade such as this one was:- you can clean it, stain it, oil it, put it in sandang walikat and effectively retire it, or you can clean up the edges, reshape it, and make it fit for use as a keris to be worn as an item of dress.

The wrongko is beautiful, and this type of wrongko is not seen all that often---its scarce.

The handle would be better replaced with an East Jawa one.

All in all, I reckon this is a pretty fair sort of keris.

ferrylaki · 23rd November 2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

G'day Ferry,

I've lifted your full length blade pic and massaged it through Photoshop, but I'm sorry, I just cannot see enough detail to have a guess at the pamor.

In my opinion, and based upon what I can see in the photo, this is an old blade that has had the edges cleaned up, and has been reshaped.

Some people regard this as an undesirable practice, however, done skilfully, I do not. If an old blade is worth preserving, and this one is worth preserving, this is one way of ensuring its preservation. OK, its not a national treasure, but it is decent old blade, providing a shadow of its former self. There are two things you can do with a very deteriorated blade such as this one was:- you can clean it, stain it, oil it, put it in sandang walikat and effectively retire it, or you can clean up the edges, reshape it, and make it fit for use as a keris to be worn as an item of dress.

The wrongko is beautiful, and this type of wrongko is not seen all that often---its scarce.

The handle would be better replaced with an East Jawa one.

All in all, I reckon this is a pretty fair sort of keris.

Thank you Alan.
I finally met Mr Pauzan. He's very kind person. I found nice kerises in his store, which beyond my buying limit. Not saying it expensive, but good stuff means more money to spend right?

I read the book "keris jawa antara mistik dan nalar" by Mr Haryono last night. I think that pamor type is " SEKAR GLAGAH" . its very similar tho.
Abaut the warangka, this timoho warangka is indeed a scarce wood. as you can see it is just too big and too thick for the keris. I have a plan to give it a new cendana wangi Surakarta Gayaman. It is a reshape keris, people from Surakarta allow to re shape kerises. There is a friend of mine manage to supply me with some cendana wangi gayaman. the trouble is on the hilt. Tayuman wood are very very scarce , and if I find one, the price I have to pay will be high.

I'll post the picture of the gayaman as soon as its ready. I'd like to show to you all the project I made to this keris. There are a numbers of kerises I'd like to show you...hope you all may help me with the restoration.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2007, 01:38 AM

Yeah, Pak Pauzan is a number one class person. A good man. Not many people in Jawa that I trust:- I trust Pak Pus and his family 101%.

Look Ferry, tayuman handles are silly expensive. If you can wait till next time I'm in Solo, sometime next year, I'll give you a piece of wood that has exactly the same qualities as tayuman, but better colour and grain, then you can get it carved.I can even point you to an excellent tukang jejeran.

Keris prices--- you mostly get what you pay for:- pay cheap---get junk; pay in the middle---get something that's OK; pay expensive--- get good---as long as you know what you're doing.

But Ferry, just a quiet word:- let's not talk values, prices & etc here. This is not a market, its a study site. Lets keep it money free. You want talk values, email me and I'll talk all day.

Who is doing the gayam for you?

ferrylaki · 23rd November 2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, Pak Pauzan is a number one class person. A good man. Not many people in Jawa that I trust:- I trust Pak Pus and his family 101%.

Look Ferry, tayuman handles are silly expensive. If you can wait till next time I'm in Solo, sometime next year, I'll give you a piece of wood that has exactly the same qualities as tayuman, but better colour and grain, then you can get it carved.I can even point you to an excellent tukang jejeran.

Keris prices--- you mostly get what you pay for:- pay cheap---get junk; pay in the middle---get something that's OK; pay expensive--- get good---as long as you know what you're doing.

But Ferry, just a quiet word:- let's not talk values, prices & etc here. This is not a market, its a study site. Lets keep it money free. You want talk values, email me and I'll talk all day.

Who is doing the gayam for you?

Ok Alan...I'm looking forward to see you next year. Pak Pauzan told me that you come to Solo once or two times in a year.
I heard that there are some species of wood from Australia has hardness and grain similar or even better than tayuman it self.

I get my gayaman from a keris dealer Mr Henky in rawabening market east Jakarta. the mranggi it self is Pak Plongoh from bekonang.
I just order keris hilt in kemuning wood from Mr Yanto in north Alun alun .
but I havent receive the result yet.
He showed me some example of cecekan which has some quality.
the problem is finding the wood it self, even kemuning wood is getting scarce ( kemuning with minimum 15cm diagonal) .

I'm very sorry for mentioning the kerises price. my intention was to tell that the blade is a cheap example of keris.trully sorry. will never happen again.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2007, 05:20 AM

Thanks for the names Ferry. Don't know any of them, but that doesn't mean anything, I center on Solo, and limit my work to one or two top people.

Yeah, all wood is hard to get in Jawa now. But it comes and goes--- you'll find that for a few weeks there will be a lot of really premium stuff around, and when that's gone you might wait 12 months or more before you get anything good again. Its sure not what it used to be like 20 or 30 years back---but even then really premium stuff was difficult.

I try to get to Solo at least once a year---depends on my work commitments in Oz.When things are slack I have been known to go 3 or 4 times, but that's rare. Next year looks bad at the moment. I need 14 months in next year.

ferrylaki · 23rd November 2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the names Ferry. Don't know any of them, but that doesn't mean anything, I center on Solo, and limit my work to one or two top people.

Yeah, all wood is hard to get in Jawa now. But it comes and goes--- you'll find that for a few weeks there will be a lot of really premium stuff around, and when that's gone you might wait 12 months or more before you get anything good again. Its sure not what it used to be like 20 or 30 years back---but even then really premium stuff was difficult.

I try to get to Solo at least once a year---depends on my work commitments in Oz.When things are slack I have been known to go 3 or 4 times, but that's rare. Next year looks bad at the moment. I need 14 months in next year.

For Correction the name is not Mr.Plongoh....but Mr.Plompong from bekonang.
and Mr Henky ( a friend of mine) says Mr Plompong make good Sunggingan.
Mr.Henky would be a goos person to deal with in Rawabening keris market.
I'm Ganjawulung will agree with me.

I'll visit Mr.Pauzan next December. He's so nice to every body. I introduce my self as a beginner in collecting keris and he gladly answer every question thet I have. Trully nice peson he is.

OK, Thanks to you all ...
the information helps alot.

ganjawulung · 23rd November 2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

For Correction the name is not Mr.Plongoh....but Mr.Plompong from bekonang.
and Mr Henky ( a friend of mine) says Mr Plompong make good Sunggingan.
Mr.Henky would be a goos person to deal with in Rawabening keris market.
I'm Ganjawulung will agree with me.

I'll visit Mr.Pauzan next December. He's so nice to every body. I introduce my self as a beginner in collecting keris and he gladly answer every question thet I have. Trully nice peson he is.

OK, Thanks to you all ...
the information helps alot.

Dear Ferry,

Mr Plompong is one of the young and promising mranggi warangka (sheath maker) in Solo now. I think he is around 30-s of age. I went twice at his home in Bekonang, in the Eastern part of Solo. His craftmanship on Solonese gayaman and ladrang, is good. But not Jogjanese, of course... (Bekonang is wellknown of producing specific local alcoholic drink called "ciu", you may call it as "solonese whiskey"...). The best mranggi was Mr Indarto (I forgot his formal name in Keraton Solo), but unfortunately this wellknown warangka maker of Keraton Solo died last year...

Hengky? Yes, hengky purnomo in pasar (tradisional market) Rawabening in Jakarta was one of the good keris dealers in Jakarta. If you are fond of precious stones -- then Rawabening is a good "oasis" for you.

The pasar is very very crowded, and... that is Jakarta "slump"... There are more than 10 keris shops there, but mostly selling 21th century Madurese kerises. Only two shops, I think, that sometimes you may find good and occasionally -- exceptional kerises.

(Once upon a time, I think it was 10 years ago, there was an old lady who sold the belonging of her late husband. One of them, was a very very rare form of keris with old wayang relief in the whole blade. Like the keris with relief, which you may see in Tropen Museum Amsterdam. Mr Cholik, one Madurese keris dealer bought the keris with cheap price. And not for long later, a colector gave Mr Cholik a motorbike in exchange of the keris... If I were there, I would change it more than one motorbike, I think...)

Ganjawulung

22nd November 2007, 03:15 AM	#1
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	Keris Identification This keris is mine. the reason I bought this keris is for the timoho warangka and the nice dapur. seem to be in good shape. I consider the dapur to be PASOPATI... I have no idea about the PAMOR. I really have a bad feeling about the dapur. it might have been changed. there for I really need your you opinion. Regards, FERRY Attached Images

22nd November 2007, 08:15 AM	#3
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	pasopati dapur a pasopati dapur usually has greneng and mine doesnt. take a look at the ganja, buntut urang section, it might have greneng once. From all keris pictures I've ever seen, keris with dapur pasopati always shows greneng. How do you think about the pamor? what kind of pamor is it? the pamor seen obvious in the centre of the blade, but thats all . not evidence of pamor on other section. regards, FERRY

22nd November 2007, 06:50 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Any specific reason why you thought the dapor had been changed or modified? The keris looks very fine to me, and I like it very much also

22nd November 2007, 08:47 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Like you said Ferry, your pasopati used to have greneng though in your case I can see less significant one. Couldnt it be because years of washing? Judging from the steel - it looks old. Some say Pasopati was created during Kadewatan period which is older than Keris Buda...... Though your example definitely younger creation, IMHO, it has some age to it....I cant comment on the pamor that I've never seen before...

22nd November 2007, 10:31 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	G'day Ferry, I've lifted your full length blade pic and massaged it through Photoshop, but I'm sorry, I just cannot see enough detail to have a guess at the pamor. In my opinion, and based upon what I can see in the photo, this is an old blade that has had the edges cleaned up, and has been reshaped. Some people regard this as an undesirable practice, however, done skilfully, I do not. If an old blade is worth preserving, and this one is worth preserving, this is one way of ensuring its preservation. OK, its not a national treasure, but it is decent old blade, providing a shadow of its former self. There are two things you can do with a very deteriorated blade such as this one was:- you can clean it, stain it, oil it, put it in sandang walikat and effectively retire it, or you can clean up the edges, reshape it, and make it fit for use as a keris to be worn as an item of dress. The wrongko is beautiful, and this type of wrongko is not seen all that often---its scarce. The handle would be better replaced with an East Jawa one. All in all, I reckon this is a pretty fair sort of keris.

23rd November 2007, 01:38 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yeah, Pak Pauzan is a number one class person. A good man. Not many people in Jawa that I trust:- I trust Pak Pus and his family 101%. Look Ferry, tayuman handles are silly expensive. If you can wait till next time I'm in Solo, sometime next year, I'll give you a piece of wood that has exactly the same qualities as tayuman, but better colour and grain, then you can get it carved.I can even point you to an excellent tukang jejeran. Keris prices--- you mostly get what you pay for:- pay cheap---get junk; pay in the middle---get something that's OK; pay expensive--- get good---as long as you know what you're doing. But Ferry, just a quiet word:- let's not talk values, prices & etc here. This is not a market, its a study site. Lets keep it money free. You want talk values, email me and I'll talk all day. Who is doing the gayam for you?

23rd November 2007, 05:20 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Thanks for the names Ferry. Don't know any of them, but that doesn't mean anything, I center on Solo, and limit my work to one or two top people. Yeah, all wood is hard to get in Jawa now. But it comes and goes--- you'll find that for a few weeks there will be a lot of really premium stuff around, and when that's gone you might wait 12 months or more before you get anything good again. Its sure not what it used to be like 20 or 30 years back---but even then really premium stuff was difficult. I try to get to Solo at least once a year---depends on my work commitments in Oz.When things are slack I have been known to go 3 or 4 times, but that's rare. Next year looks bad at the moment. I need 14 months in next year.