Gun powder measurer ... Islamic ?

fernando · 22nd April 2008, 10:47 PM

Anyone ever seen one of these ?
I was told this is Islamic, XIX century.
Islamic is very vague for a provenance.
Coments will be so much welcome.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2008, 04:26 AM

You've done it again Fernando! where in the world do you find these unbelievably interesting items? I never thought much about measuring devices for powder, but of course they must have been important, otherwise you'd blow the gun to pieces with a mischarge. I guess it probably happened more than we have heard though.
The interesting hourglass geometrics, very much like similar on the flyssa motif. Possibly Berber, or in the Maghreb. Possibly referenced in either Islamic firearms by Elgood or maybe in the Tirri book?

All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 23rd April 2008, 08:04 AM

Definately a powder measure judging by the adjustable internal slide. I have seen a lot of items described as "Islamic". A faily safe description in my mind as it covers a VERY large area. I have to say it is nice to see an increase in the firearms side of Ethnographic weapons. Might have to put up a few bits and pieces myself when I get the time.
Regards Stuart

ward · 23rd April 2008, 10:47 PM

Mainly you see these out afghanistan and some out of turkey. The brass ones are usually of a late period. When I get some time I will shot some pics of various examples of these powder measures.

fernando · 23rd April 2008, 11:53 PM

Hi Jim,
You're right; in the very beginning there were more mischarges than successfull shots. Either i dreamed or have read that the guys chosen to handle fire weapons, namely cannons, were convicts and the like, such was the probabilty that the things bursted or fired back.
If you think this example i posted is something interesting, wait untill Ward comes up with his material

Hi Stuart,
I now Islam is a vast universe, but still is a reference; when you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat

.

Hi Ward,
Thanks for the info on the provenances; i hope that by "late period" you don't mean 20th century ... i will cry

I will be anxiously expecting pictures of your examples.
Fernando

ward · 24th April 2008, 09:31 PM

here are a couple of powder measures and some with ammunition belts. The pic with 2 measures the top is early turkish mostly likely 17th century. The lower piece typical afghan and the belts are also afghan. Iron is harder to work than brass. You must member there were 3 major afghan wars the 2nd in 1890's and the 3rd in 1919. General rule is that powder was more refined later and smaller amounts could be used so the measures were smaller. Much of the moro armor you see was used against McCarthur in the early part of the the 20th century, The afghans were still using Jezails thru the 1980's, The vietnamese were still using flintlocks in the 1960-1970's. Late is not bad as log as it is put in perspective and context. I am not saying tourist or religous recreations pieces are the way to go, but well made indegous pieces are worthwhile whether they were made in the 16th century or 20th

ward · 25th April 2008, 01:49 AM

powder measures are unusal to find in Islamic pieces. More rare is to find rifle sumas and bullet moulds. they were generally destroyed as not markatable and now pretty scarce

eftihis · 25th April 2008, 08:32 PM

Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere!

kahnjar1 · 25th April 2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere!

The bullet mould looks distinctly "colt" to me---certainly not in keeping with the rest of the accessories.

fernando · 25th April 2008, 11:18 PM

Thanks a lot Ward, for both the precious info and the sharing of your excelent examples.
I understand your views in that being a later production doesn't necessarily mean bad stuff. However there is still the question of criteria; i myself prefer things with the seal of antiquity

I see now that Jim was right in that these powder charge measures are referenced in Tirri's book:
as also, after learning their Persian name ( WAZNA-Y-BARUT ), i found them in Stone's Glossary.
Eventually Tirri includes them in the Persia section, whereas Tirri mentions that they exist(ed) throughout Persia and Turkey. Neither quotes Afghanistan, but i can see the involvement, as also your labeled examples.
Amazingly Faganarms has one for sale and tagged it as Ottoman.
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i.../en1store.html
I can see that iron was used in earlier pieces, as also gold and silver inlay in more luxury specimens, and the tubes exterior was often octogonal or even ten sided ( Stone ).
But it appears that brass was used still in the 19th century, although i don't have such certainty in my example. Also i wouldn't know its provenance from amongst the three different regions.
One thing i notice as a "modernity" in this piece is the diverse type of marks in the plunger as, instead of only seeming to regulate half and full charges (?), could also be for the distinct gun types, like pistols and muskets ... just a fantasy of mine

Thanks once again, for above and also possible future coments

.
Fernando

kahnjar1 · 25th April 2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The bullet mould looks distinctly "colt" to me---certainly not in keeping with the rest of the accessories.

I should have attached these pics to qualify my comment on the "colt" mould.
Regards Stuart

ward · 25th April 2008, 11:40 PM

yes I would probaly date yours in the 1870-1920 period but that is just a eductated guess region is hard to pinpoint. Tirri would not be my choice in using as a precise dating and location decision. Elgood is a better reference and a few other authors that I can think of. I like the last bullet mould shown. I will get some pics of some various ones I have. Regarding the greek examples of measures they do not seem to have much of a greek motif to them turkey for the one and afghanistan for the other would seem more likely.

fernando · 26th April 2008, 12:56 AM

Thanks everybody.
Say Ward, could you guess an origin and a possible date for the two bullet moulds shown by Stuart ?
Fernando

ward · 26th April 2008, 01:37 AM

the bottom one yes indian and probaly 19th century. The main reason why attributting origin is I own a very similar one but inscriped with indian lettering. Gut feeling on the other afghan no guess on age

fernando · 26th April 2008, 01:45 AM

Thanks a lot, Ward

ward · 26th April 2008, 07:03 PM

here are some various bullet moulds 1st one is stone and was collected in a cave in the atlas mountains in morroco. 2nd in eastern european out of albania.

ward · 26th April 2008, 07:10 PM

Here is a indian version script on the one inside handle of 1 side on the other a file to smooth the ball after casting

ward · 26th April 2008, 07:17 PM

afghan gang iron bullet mould

Dajak · 12th September 2019, 11:51 AM

Just found one yesterday are there any books about these items?

Dajak

mahratt · 12th September 2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Just found one yesterday are there any books about these items?

Dajak

Congratulations! Good powder measure. I think from Afghanistan or Persia

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th September 2019, 03:38 PM

For excellent examples of Arabian bullet molds powder measures etc please see http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-u...Matchlock.html

Dajak · 12th September 2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

For excellent examples of Arabian bullet molds powder measures etc please see http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-u...Matchlock.html

great Items Thanks

kronckew · 12th September 2019, 07:01 PM

Ferric powder measurers would not be terribly bright as it can spark when the parts rub, non-ferrous brass is much safer and cheaper than bronze. Probably took a few missing fingers and other parts before the word got around, maybe why there are fewer old ferric ones. They blew up.

mahratt · 12th September 2019, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Ferric powder measurers would not be terribly bright as it can spark when the parts rub, non-ferrous brass is much safer and cheaper than bronze. Probably took a few missing fingers and other parts before the word got around, maybe why there are fewer old ferric ones. They blew up.

In Afghanistan and now you can find a lot of ferric powder measures. I think there were even more of them, but the iron perhaps is destroyed by rust ...

mahratt · 13th September 2019, 08:58 AM

Some of my ferric gunpowder measures from Afghanistan.

Dajak · 14th September 2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Some of my ferric gunpowder measures from Afghanistan.

very nice examples

Ben

cyten · 16th August 2022, 07:12 AM

I just came into possession of three of these types of measures and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I believe these types are Ottoman. I purchased mine in Turkey in a small village on the Black Sea, I have found many more examples in Bulgaria as well. No doubt the design or examples have made their way throughout the empire and into Persia as well as Afghanistan, but I believe their origin is Ottoman.

fernando · 16th August 2022, 11:49 AM

Can you show us yours, cyten ?

mahratt · 16th August 2022, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyten

I just came into possession of three of these types of measures and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I believe these types are Ottoman. I purchased mine in Turkey in a small village on the Black Sea, I have found many more examples in Bulgaria as well. No doubt the design or examples have made their way throughout the empire and into Persia as well as Afghanistan, but I believe their origin is Ottoman.

Persia and Turkey and Persia and Afghanistan are so closely connected with each other that it is very difficult to say who borrowed powder measures from whom ...

cyten · 16th August 2022, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you show us yours, cyten ?

I thought I had posted them, I will try again now:

22nd April 2008, 10:47 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gun powder measurer ... Islamic ? Anyone ever seen one of these ? I was told this is Islamic, XIX century. Islamic is very vague for a provenance. Coments will be so much welcome. Fernando Attached Images

23rd April 2008, 08:04 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Islamic yes Definately a powder measure judging by the adjustable internal slide. I have seen a lot of items described as "Islamic". A faily safe description in my mind as it covers a VERY large area. I have to say it is nice to see an increase in the firearms side of Ethnographic weapons. Might have to put up a few bits and pieces myself when I get the time. Regards Stuart

23rd April 2008, 11:53 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, You're right; in the very beginning there were more mischarges than successfull shots. Either i dreamed or have read that the guys chosen to handle fire weapons, namely cannons, were convicts and the like, such was the probabilty that the things bursted or fired back. If you think this example i posted is something interesting, wait untill Ward comes up with his material Hi Stuart, I now Islam is a vast universe, but still is a reference; when you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat . Hi Ward, Thanks for the info on the provenances; i hope that by "late period" you don't mean 20th century ... i will cry I will be anxiously expecting pictures of your examples. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 24th April 2008 at 12:05 AM.

24th April 2008, 09:31 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here are a couple of powder measures and some with ammunition belts. The pic with 2 measures the top is early turkish mostly likely 17th century. The lower piece typical afghan and the belts are also afghan. Iron is harder to work than brass. You must member there were 3 major afghan wars the 2nd in 1890's and the 3rd in 1919. General rule is that powder was more refined later and smaller amounts could be used so the measures were smaller. Much of the moro armor you see was used against McCarthur in the early part of the the 20th century, The afghans were still using Jezails thru the 1980's, The vietnamese were still using flintlocks in the 1960-1970's. Late is not bad as log as it is put in perspective and context. I am not saying tourist or religous recreations pieces are the way to go, but well made indegous pieces are worthwhile whether they were made in the 16th century or 20th Attached Images

25th April 2008, 08:32 PM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere! Attached Images

23rd April 2008, 04:26 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	You've done it again Fernando! where in the world do you find these unbelievably interesting items? I never thought much about measuring devices for powder, but of course they must have been important, otherwise you'd blow the gun to pieces with a mischarge. I guess it probably happened more than we have heard though. The interesting hourglass geometrics, very much like similar on the flyssa motif. Possibly Berber, or in the Maghreb. Possibly referenced in either Islamic firearms by Elgood or maybe in the Tirri book? All the best, Jim

23rd April 2008, 10:47 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Mainly you see these out afghanistan and some out of turkey. The brass ones are usually of a late period. When I get some time I will shot some pics of various examples of these powder measures.

25th April 2008, 01:49 AM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	powder measures are unusal to find in Islamic pieces. More rare is to find rifle sumas and bullet moulds. they were generally destroyed as not markatable and now pretty scarce

25th April 2008, 11:18 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot Ward, for both the precious info and the sharing of your excelent examples. I understand your views in that being a later production doesn't necessarily mean bad stuff. However there is still the question of criteria; i myself prefer things with the seal of antiquity I see now that Jim was right in that these powder charge measures are referenced in Tirri's book: as also, after learning their Persian name ( WAZNA-Y-BARUT ), i found them in Stone's Glossary. Eventually Tirri includes them in the Persia section, whereas Tirri mentions that they exist(ed) throughout Persia and Turkey. Neither quotes Afghanistan, but i can see the involvement, as also your labeled examples. Amazingly Faganarms has one for sale and tagged it as Ottoman. http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i.../en1store.html I can see that iron was used in earlier pieces, as also gold and silver inlay in more luxury specimens, and the tubes exterior was often octogonal or even ten sided ( Stone ). But it appears that brass was used still in the 19th century, although i don't have such certainty in my example. Also i wouldn't know its provenance from amongst the three different regions. One thing i notice as a "modernity" in this piece is the diverse type of marks in the plunger as, instead of only seeming to regulate half and full charges (?), could also be for the distinct gun types, like pistols and muskets ... just a fantasy of mine Thanks once again, for above and also possible future coments . Fernando Attached Images

25th April 2008, 11:40 PM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	yes I would probaly date yours in the 1870-1920 period but that is just a eductated guess region is hard to pinpoint. Tirri would not be my choice in using as a precise dating and location decision. Elgood is a better reference and a few other authors that I can think of. I like the last bullet mould shown. I will get some pics of some various ones I have. Regarding the greek examples of measures they do not seem to have much of a greek motif to them turkey for the one and afghanistan for the other would seem more likely.

26th April 2008, 12:56 AM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks everybody. Say Ward, could you guess an origin and a possible date for the two bullet moulds shown by Stuart ? Fernando Last edited by fernando; 26th April 2008 at 01:47 AM.

26th April 2008, 01:37 AM	#14
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	the bottom one yes indian and probaly 19th century. The main reason why attributting origin is I own a very similar one but inscriped with indian lettering. Gut feeling on the other afghan no guess on age

26th April 2008, 01:45 AM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot, Ward

26th April 2008, 07:03 PM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here are some various bullet moulds 1st one is stone and was collected in a cave in the atlas mountains in morroco. 2nd in eastern european out of albania. Attached Images

26th April 2008, 07:10 PM	#17
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Here is a indian version script on the one inside handle of 1 side on the other a file to smooth the ball after casting Attached Images

26th April 2008, 07:17 PM	#18
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	afghan gang iron bullet mould Attached Images

12th September 2019, 11:51 AM	#19
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Wazna I Barut Just found one yesterday are there any books about these items? Dajak Attached Images

12th September 2019, 03:38 PM	#21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For excellent examples of Arabian bullet molds powder measures etc please see http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-u...Matchlock.html

12th September 2019, 07:01 PM	#23
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Ferric powder measurers would not be terribly bright as it can spark when the parts rub, non-ferrous brass is much safer and cheaper than bronze. Probably took a few missing fingers and other parts before the word got around, maybe why there are fewer old ferric ones. They blew up.

13th September 2019, 08:58 AM	#25
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Some of my ferric gunpowder measures from Afghanistan. Attached Images

16th August 2022, 07:12 AM	#27
cyten Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Caucasus Posts: 93	I just came into possession of three of these types of measures and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I believe these types are Ottoman. I purchased mine in Turkey in a small village on the Black Sea, I have found many more examples in Bulgaria as well. No doubt the design or examples have made their way throughout the empire and into Persia as well as Afghanistan, but I believe their origin is Ottoman.

16th August 2022, 11:49 AM	#28
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Can you show us yours, cyten ?