Turkish shamshir ?

Andy Davis · 10th March 2006, 06:57 PM

Hello all
Any comments on this. Bit tatty in the grip but all there and the blade is very tasty.
I love local auctions

Cheers
Andy

Tim Simmons · 10th March 2006, 07:12 PM

Is that intruders blood we can see on the carpet

TVV · 10th March 2006, 08:15 PM

A great, serious fighting sword, congratulations. To me, however, it seems Syrian rather than Turkish, and also I am not quite sure if "shamshir" would be an appropriate name for a fullered, slightly curved blade. But then, I do not know what else to call it as saif appears to be too generic of a term.
Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 10th March 2006, 08:33 PM

I fully agree with Teodore: Syrian. This is based on the down-turned pommel and wire covering the upper langet.
The blade , I think, is trade, Persian.
I have seen a lot of such swords, Syrian, Afghani etc and had the same question:this is not a shamshir in a strict sense , because it is not curved enough, but what should we call it? Yes, Saif is broad and generic, but I just cannot find another word.

ham · 11th March 2006, 12:53 AM

The hilting certainly is Syrian type, though Dimashq or Damascus type would be more accurate since that was where most of these were done.

The blade, however, is not Persian work. It is either a European trade blade or a Caucasian copy thereof; Elgood addreses this specifically in his Arab arms book.

Ariel, as to terminology-- are you asking by what name the original (ostensibly) bedouin owner would call this sword, or how it should be categorized by English-speaking collectors in the present?

Ham

ariel · 11th March 2006, 03:50 AM

You may be right as to the origin of the blade. Markings would help a lot.
As to the name, I guess even the locals might have called it different, just to distinguish it from other types (as, for example, large kindjal in Georgia is
called Satevari etc). Also, is there any specific "European" name? I guess not, but just in case...

Andy Davis · 11th March 2006, 10:17 AM

Well shamshir is what the auction house were selling it as but from their identification of various other pieces indicated, they knew absolutely nothing.
I have other shamshirs with much more curved blades, in what I consider the classic style but as you all say, this one doesn't really fit that.
Could be a European blade, has the build of one and its certainly heavy but I've checked and there are certainly no markings.
As regards the pommel, the way it comes back towards the guard, is that typical Syrian? Others I have seen seem more like a simple right angle.
What period would we guess this is?
Cheers
Andy

No, its not blood on the carpet....intruders would be caught in the tiger traps in the garden, before they got that far

M.carter · 11th March 2006, 12:14 PM

Hi,

as all of you guys have said, this is a Syrian saif, not a turkish shamshir. The blade however, is most likely Hungarian. Ive seen hundreds of Syrian saifs, with Hungarian blades (marked hungary), like this one. There seems to have been some strong trade in blades from hungary to Damascus. Ive even seen one Nejdi Saif, on Hermann historica a few years ago, that had a signed a Hungarian blade.

EDIT: after looking at the pics closer, I think its more likely a local copy of a hungarian blade. The double fullers on hungary blades usually ended straight and uniformly towards the forte of the blade. This one however, is different. I may be wrong though.

ariel · 11th March 2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

Well shamshir is what the auction house were selling it as but from their identification of various other pieces indicated, they knew absolutely nothing.
I have other shamshirs with much more curved blades, in what I consider the classic style but as you all say, this one doesn't really fit that.
Could be a European blade, has the build of one and its certainly heavy but I've checked and there are certainly no markings.
As regards the pommel, the way it comes back towards the guard, is that typical Syrian? Others I have seen seem more like a simple right angle.
What period would we guess this is?
Cheers
Andy

No, its not blood on the carpet....intruders would be caught in the tiger traps in the garden, before they got that far

The right angle is usually Persian, the acute (turn toward the blade) is usually Syrian , and the obtuse (away from the handle) South Arabian.

Jeff D · 11th March 2006, 04:50 PM

Hi All,

This is along the lines Mark has observed. The picture is from the King Faisal Foundation book. I will leave the debate whether the classic "Bedouin" hilt style started in Hungary to another thread.

Jeff

ariel · 11th March 2006, 06:46 PM

The word for Sword is "kard" in Hungarian.
Thus, Kurda is likely to be just an Arabic rendition of it. Nothing specific.
The style of this sword , with a baldric, is S.Arabian or Egyptian. I would still suggest the Syrian/Lebanese influence. The remark that it this sword is appropriate for dancing is hardly a compliment.
In general, the book on Arabian swords whence this illustration comes is, IMHO, pretty lousy: just a bunch of pretty pictures but nothing authoritatively academic. Some non-Islamic swords found its way into it, the terminology is incomprehensible (ie different jambiya blades and handles are listed with particular names without and explanation or justification )etc.
I wish Elgood's book was more detailed as to different styles.

M.carter · 11th March 2006, 07:04 PM

Thanks alot Jeff for that pic. As you can probably see, that sword has new fittings, but seems like its got an old Hungarian blade.

I also had many other pics of Syrian saifs with hungarian blades (they seem the most common type of non-persian trade blade), but I deleted them all.

This is another one, however its a "full" antique:

Tim Simmons · 11th March 2006, 08:08 PM

I am going to chip in with this trade blade, these are all so similar it is quite fascinating. This has horn grips, they do not look like buffalo to me but I would not really know and they could come from many other animals rather than rhino. Tim

ariel · 11th March 2006, 09:22 PM

The last one is a Bedouin sword (Sinai, Negev, Transjordan).
They used any blade they could put their hands on...
I would be careful attributing any blade to Hungary without unequivocal evidence: inscriptions.

Andy Davis · 11th March 2006, 11:10 PM

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Jeff D · 12th March 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Hi Andy,

I am not sure why you think this is largely speculation? Burton and Elgood confirm Mark's observations of these 19th c. Hungarian blades. I think it is highly likely he is correct. Other possibilities for your blade are Solingen or Caucasian, impossible for me to tell with out marks.

Jeff

ham · 12th March 2006, 07:13 AM

Jeff confirms what several have said; Elgood takes up this subject in some detail, more Forumites ought to consider it.
Don't recall whether it was in Elgood or elsewhere-- bedouins referred to a particular type of blade as majjar which certainly supports the contention that they distinguished Hungarian from among other blades. The word exists in Hungarian of course, as well as Turkish and I think passed thence into Arabic.
All manner of European blades were traded through the Porte, both Eastern European, Caucasian copies thereof, and others. I am not aware of any record of their being traded in Arabia directly by Hungarians.
As for the term Kurda I would argue that rather than deriving from the Huingarian for "sword," it is a variation on Gurda which as we know refers to Caucasian-made blades specifically.

Ham

M.carter · 12th March 2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Dont forget that Syria at that time was part of the Ottoman empire, which I think (correct me if im wrong) did trade with Hungary, so Hungarian blades reaching Damascus wasnt a hard job at all.

M.carter · 12th March 2006, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Andy,

I am not sure why you think this is largely speculation? Burton and Elgood confirm Mark's observations of these 19th c. Hungarian blades. I think it is highly likely he is correct. Other possibilities for your blade are Solingen or Caucasian, impossible for me to tell with out marks.

Jeff

Off course Jeff, Im not totally assuming its a Hungarian blade, I also said it could be a local copy, or another kind of european blade. The absence of any marks makes it difficult to any possibilities.

Andy, are you sure there are no marks here or there?

Andy Davis · 12th March 2006, 10:19 PM

There seems to be some insistance that there must be marks on this blade, so I have decided to attempt to clean it. Though it has a very deep and dark pattina, i'll just have to look and see what I can find.
I know who to blame

You say, durring this period, Syria was under Otterman rule. As I think I asked, what period are we talking about here?
Andy

M.carter · 13th March 2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

There seems to be some insistance that there must be marks on this blade, so I have decided to attempt to clean it. Though it has a very deep and dark pattina, i'll just have to look and see what I can find.
I know who to blame

You say, durring this period, Syria was under Otterman rule. As I think I asked, what period are we talking about here?
Andy

As for marks, they should be visible even through the patina, just put the blade near some strong like and you should spot them, if any.

As for the period, I cant answer this. Someone more experienced like Jeff, Jim or Andrew may probably do so.

Andrew · 13th March 2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

As for the period, I cant answer this. Someone more experienced like Jeff, Jim or Andrew may probably do so.

I'm only an interested spectator on things like this, Mark.

M.carter · 13th March 2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm only an interested spectator on things like this, Mark.

you just point your thumb up or down

Andy Davis · 13th March 2006, 09:46 PM

Well the blade has been cleaned on one side, sympathetically and we have no markings. Otherside may yet reveal something but I dont think they are there.
Hoping Brian will come out of hiding for an opinion

B.I · 14th March 2006, 01:53 AM

hi andy,
sorry, but have been away.
thats very flattering to ask my opinion but like andrew, i am just an interested spectator. my taste and knowledge is blinkered on india and there is nothing indian about this sword. so, i must step aside and let others of more knowledge step in whilst i watch from the sidelines.
i can humbley offer that i feel the blade is european and the pommel cap is a later addition. other than that, will happily agree with whats been said already.

ham · 14th March 2006, 08:29 PM

These blades begin to appear in shashkas in the NW Caucasus in the mid-late 18th century, appear more commonly in all manner of Caucasian, Ottoman and Arab weapons by the mid 19th, and finally, appear in profusion in bedouin sabres by the early 20th-- therefore for purposes of this discussion they are probably best bounded between 1800-1900.

Eduard Wagner shows a number of such blades in Eastern European and Austro-Hungarian Empire mounts as early as the late 17th-early 18th century, though the earliest examples bear a far more pronounced (i.e. raised) backedge. The binding characteristic among them all is their distinctive fullering and what Wagner calls cabalistic markings. Stamped maker's marks or signatures begin to appear wth frequency at the forte and occasionally upon the tangs of these blades after 1850. Clauberg was a big producer, as was Knecht, whose mark was a close helmet. Both were German, so far as the term defines them, not Hungarian, though originally it is from Hungary that the form derives, and to Poland where so many were locally mounted.

Fullscale export from Europe to the MidEast, Caucasus, etc. via the Porte (i.e. Istanbul) probably began to occur about the 1850s, though the form was definitely popular in the Ottoman sphere from at least a century before. Caucasian "copy" export production probably began a decade or two later-- a classic reaction to the popularity of an imported luxury product which was available through a single source, in short supply and therefore pricey. The village of Amuzgh in Daghestan was especially well-known for a broad range of blade types. These were intended to pass as Euopean, hence were not locally maker-marked, in fact it is probable that the increase in marked blades out of Europe in the late 19th century was in reaction to these Caucasian copies.

Ham

Andy Davis · 17th March 2006, 08:41 AM

Well, I have to confess my surprise!
I cleaned the one side of the blade and nothing and then wonderd if I could be botherd to do the other side, especially as pattina was nice and there didnt appear to be anything underneath.
But then I did, just to balance the thing out and I've found something.
The photo really is as good as it gets, so a full word is unreadable but its clearly a block capital European text. Very shallow and worn away but its there.
So I guess, it certainly is Hungarian trade blade. Well done
I'm now wondering whats under the pattina of all my other swords!!! as this certainly wouldnt have shown up without the serious cleaning.
Cheers
Andy

10th March 2006, 06:57 PM	#1
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Turkish shamshir ? Hello all Any comments on this. Bit tatty in the grip but all there and the blade is very tasty. I love local auctions Cheers Andy Attached Images

11th March 2006, 04:50 PM	#10
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, This is along the lines Mark has observed. The picture is from the King Faisal Foundation book. I will leave the debate whether the classic "Bedouin" hilt style started in Hungary to another thread. Jeff Attached Images

11th March 2006, 07:04 PM	#12
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thanks alot Jeff for that pic. As you can probably see, that sword has new fittings, but seems like its got an old Hungarian blade. I also had many other pics of Syrian saifs with hungarian blades (they seem the most common type of non-persian trade blade), but I deleted them all. This is another one, however its a "full" antique: Attached Images Last edited by M.carter; 12th March 2006 at 08:46 AM.

11th March 2006, 08:08 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am going to chip in with this trade blade, these are all so similar it is quite fascinating. This has horn grips, they do not look like buffalo to me but I would not really know and they could come from many other animals rather than rhino. Tim Attached Images

17th March 2006, 08:41 AM	#27
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	The mystery continues Well, I have to confess my surprise! I cleaned the one side of the blade and nothing and then wonderd if I could be botherd to do the other side, especially as pattina was nice and there didnt appear to be anything underneath. But then I did, just to balance the thing out and I've found something. The photo really is as good as it gets, so a full word is unreadable but its clearly a block capital European text. Very shallow and worn away but its there. So I guess, it certainly is Hungarian trade blade. Well done I'm now wondering whats under the pattina of all my other swords!!! as this certainly wouldnt have shown up without the serious cleaning. Cheers Andy Attached Images

10th March 2006, 07:12 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Is that intruders blood we can see on the carpet

10th March 2006, 08:15 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	A great, serious fighting sword, congratulations. To me, however, it seems Syrian rather than Turkish, and also I am not quite sure if "shamshir" would be an appropriate name for a fullered, slightly curved blade. But then, I do not know what else to call it as saif appears to be too generic of a term. Regards, Teodor

10th March 2006, 08:33 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree with Teodore: Syrian. This is based on the down-turned pommel and wire covering the upper langet. The blade , I think, is trade, Persian. I have seen a lot of such swords, Syrian, Afghani etc and had the same question:this is not a shamshir in a strict sense , because it is not curved enough, but what should we call it? Yes, Saif is broad and generic, but I just cannot find another word.

11th March 2006, 12:53 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The hilting certainly is Syrian type, though Dimashq or Damascus type would be more accurate since that was where most of these were done. The blade, however, is not Persian work. It is either a European trade blade or a Caucasian copy thereof; Elgood addreses this specifically in his Arab arms book. Ariel, as to terminology-- are you asking by what name the original (ostensibly) bedouin owner would call this sword, or how it should be categorized by English-speaking collectors in the present? Ham

11th March 2006, 03:50 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You may be right as to the origin of the blade. Markings would help a lot. As to the name, I guess even the locals might have called it different, just to distinguish it from other types (as, for example, large kindjal in Georgia is called Satevari etc). Also, is there any specific "European" name? I guess not, but just in case...

11th March 2006, 10:17 AM	#7
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Well shamshir is what the auction house were selling it as but from their identification of various other pieces indicated, they knew absolutely nothing. I have other shamshirs with much more curved blades, in what I consider the classic style but as you all say, this one doesn't really fit that. Could be a European blade, has the build of one and its certainly heavy but I've checked and there are certainly no markings. As regards the pommel, the way it comes back towards the guard, is that typical Syrian? Others I have seen seem more like a simple right angle. What period would we guess this is? Cheers Andy No, its not blood on the carpet....intruders would be caught in the tiger traps in the garden, before they got that far

11th March 2006, 12:14 PM	#8
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi, as all of you guys have said, this is a Syrian saif, not a turkish shamshir. The blade however, is most likely Hungarian. Ive seen hundreds of Syrian saifs, with Hungarian blades (marked hungary), like this one. There seems to have been some strong trade in blades from hungary to Damascus. Ive even seen one Nejdi Saif, on Hermann historica a few years ago, that had a signed a Hungarian blade. EDIT: after looking at the pics closer, I think its more likely a local copy of a hungarian blade. The double fullers on hungary blades usually ended straight and uniformly towards the forte of the blade. This one however, is different. I may be wrong though.

11th March 2006, 06:46 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The word for Sword is "kard" in Hungarian. Thus, Kurda is likely to be just an Arabic rendition of it. Nothing specific. The style of this sword , with a baldric, is S.Arabian or Egyptian. I would still suggest the Syrian/Lebanese influence. The remark that it this sword is appropriate for dancing is hardly a compliment. In general, the book on Arabian swords whence this illustration comes is, IMHO, pretty lousy: just a bunch of pretty pictures but nothing authoritatively academic. Some non-Islamic swords found its way into it, the terminology is incomprehensible (ie different jambiya blades and handles are listed with particular names without and explanation or justification )etc. I wish Elgood's book was more detailed as to different styles.

11th March 2006, 09:22 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The last one is a Bedouin sword (Sinai, Negev, Transjordan). They used any blade they could put their hands on... I would be careful attributing any blade to Hungary without unequivocal evidence: inscriptions.

11th March 2006, 11:10 PM	#15
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

12th March 2006, 07:13 AM	#17
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Jeff confirms what several have said; Elgood takes up this subject in some detail, more Forumites ought to consider it. Don't recall whether it was in Elgood or elsewhere-- bedouins referred to a particular type of blade as majjar which certainly supports the contention that they distinguished Hungarian from among other blades. The word exists in Hungarian of course, as well as Turkish and I think passed thence into Arabic. All manner of European blades were traded through the Porte, both Eastern European, Caucasian copies thereof, and others. I am not aware of any record of their being traded in Arabia directly by Hungarians. As for the term Kurda I would argue that rather than deriving from the Huingarian for "sword," it is a variation on Gurda which as we know refers to Caucasian-made blades specifically. Ham

12th March 2006, 10:19 PM	#20
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	There seems to be some insistance that there must be marks on this blade, so I have decided to attempt to clean it. Though it has a very deep and dark pattina, i'll just have to look and see what I can find. I know who to blame You say, durring this period, Syria was under Otterman rule. As I think I asked, what period are we talking about here? Andy

13th March 2006, 09:46 PM	#24
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Well the blade has been cleaned on one side, sympathetically and we have no markings. Otherside may yet reveal something but I dont think they are there. Hoping Brian will come out of hiding for an opinion

14th March 2006, 01:53 AM	#25
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi andy, sorry, but have been away. thats very flattering to ask my opinion but like andrew, i am just an interested spectator. my taste and knowledge is blinkered on india and there is nothing indian about this sword. so, i must step aside and let others of more knowledge step in whilst i watch from the sidelines. i can humbley offer that i feel the blade is european and the pommel cap is a later addition. other than that, will happily agree with whats been said already.

14th March 2006, 08:29 PM	#26
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	These blades begin to appear in shashkas in the NW Caucasus in the mid-late 18th century, appear more commonly in all manner of Caucasian, Ottoman and Arab weapons by the mid 19th, and finally, appear in profusion in bedouin sabres by the early 20th-- therefore for purposes of this discussion they are probably best bounded between 1800-1900. Eduard Wagner shows a number of such blades in Eastern European and Austro-Hungarian Empire mounts as early as the late 17th-early 18th century, though the earliest examples bear a far more pronounced (i.e. raised) backedge. The binding characteristic among them all is their distinctive fullering and what Wagner calls cabalistic markings. Stamped maker's marks or signatures begin to appear wth frequency at the forte and occasionally upon the tangs of these blades after 1850. Clauberg was a big producer, as was Knecht, whose mark was a close helmet. Both were German, so far as the term defines them, not Hungarian, though originally it is from Hungary that the form derives, and to Poland where so many were locally mounted. Fullscale export from Europe to the MidEast, Caucasus, etc. via the Porte (i.e. Istanbul) probably began to occur about the 1850s, though the form was definitely popular in the Ottoman sphere from at least a century before. Caucasian "copy" export production probably began a decade or two later-- a classic reaction to the popularity of an imported luxury product which was available through a single source, in short supply and therefore pricey. The village of Amuzgh in Daghestan was especially well-known for a broad range of blade types. These were intended to pass as Euopean, hence were not locally maker-marked, in fact it is probable that the increase in marked blades out of Europe in the late 19th century was in reaction to these Caucasian copies. Ham