Peruvian/Inca war club?

fearn · 8th May 2015, 09:36 PM

The bronze isn't a problem, because the Andes had bronze since around the 10th century IIRC. I'd be more concerned about things like the relative lack of patina and the clean break on one of the spikes. I'd also be concerned about the provenance, although I'm not familiar with Bolivian and Peruvian antiquities laws.

F

VANDOO · 9th May 2015, 12:45 AM

I SEE THESE BRONZE AND COPPER MACE HEADS FOR SALE IN AUCTION HOUSES FROM TIME TO TIME. THEY ARE NOT COMMON BUT DO COME IN DIFFERENT SHAPES AND SIZES AND FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES. I DON'T KNOW IF REPLICAS HAVE BEEN MADE OR NOT. BUT SINCE YOU DON'T SEE LOTS OF THEM LIKE THE POPULAR LURISTAN AND CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS PERHAPS THE ODDS ARE BETTER OF GETTING A REAL ARTIFACT. THERE MAY BE A OLD POST WITH PICTURES OF SOME PERHAPS A SEARCH OF PRECOLUMBIAN, MACE OR BRONZE MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. GOOD LUCK

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 01:06 AM

Thank you!
I did find a thread with a few similar weapons, here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=743

Quote:

the clean break on one of the spikes

Why do you think the clean break could be a problem?

fearn · 9th May 2015, 04:48 AM

How did the break happen? It's not like the Inka or their predecessors had saws, and there's no sign of crystallization. They weren't clumsy metal-smiths, so I doubt it was a bad casting. Was it cut off for some reason, accidentally destroyed by a looter's pick? It's a troubling inconsistency.

F

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 09:23 AM

It looks like the piece was cast from a form as it is. The spike has not been cut or broken off after casting. The patina does not bother me. Grave goods are dug up from certain environments in almost mint condition. The size looks correct to examples I have seen and have pictures of. Why it has a truncated spike is bit of a mystery. Perhaps it alters the striking properties? perhaps it is currency or offering? Is it a fake? seems odd to fake a mace head this way. If I were to fake a mace head I would have all the spikes or damage one spike to fake age and usage. I know there is fake pottery, reproduction pottery and new ancient pottery made in Peru for tourists. There could well be reproduction bronze castings. Without real provenance only metal testing will be conclusive as to whether it is genuine. When I visit museums that have Peruvian collections I am amazed at the fineness of art objects. Pottery and textiles in wonderful condition. Can you get real ancient artifacts on ebay? I think it may be possible. I bought a Peruvian {Chimu} pot sold on ebay as African. What you have to keep in mind it that the Spanish conquest would not change all aspects of culture over night. It would take decades to reach every community that had craft activity. Local forms of expression in manufactures would have continued for perhaps centuries. Here is a picture of the pot I cost very little so if it is fake or repro I do not mind, but as I say it would not have to be from the 1500s to be genuine.

ashoka · 9th May 2015, 10:38 AM

Looks great to me. Patina and wear is as you would expect, at one point it has been totally cleaned chemically of all the original patina and then aquired another old one. To me it looks as if one spike was damaged a long time ago, presumably on the crest of Pizarro's helmet, and subsequently was cut off to make it look 'neater' not the first time I have seen this. Obviously a long time ago as it is not a sharp cut but worn. It appears to be made from porous cast and hammered copper which again I think is what you'd expect although it's not really my dept. Nice thing!

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 11:41 AM

Thank you all for your opinions. The metal seems to be a bit brighter where the spike is broken, so perhaps it was indeed once sawed off.
Is there any person/insitution where it could be appraised first-hand (and not too expensively so?). It is certainly not worth a lot, even if real, but I love everything pre-columbian and this piece just feels "good".

9th May 2015, 09:23 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,742	It looks like the piece was cast from a form as it is. The spike has not been cut or broken off after casting. The patina does not bother me. Grave goods are dug up from certain environments in almost mint condition. The size looks correct to examples I have seen and have pictures of. Why it has a truncated spike is bit of a mystery. Perhaps it alters the striking properties? perhaps it is currency or offering? Is it a fake? seems odd to fake a mace head this way. If I were to fake a mace head I would have all the spikes or damage one spike to fake age and usage. I know there is fake pottery, reproduction pottery and new ancient pottery made in Peru for tourists. There could well be reproduction bronze castings. Without real provenance only metal testing will be conclusive as to whether it is genuine. When I visit museums that have Peruvian collections I am amazed at the fineness of art objects. Pottery and textiles in wonderful condition. Can you get real ancient artifacts on ebay? I think it may be possible. I bought a Peruvian {Chimu} pot sold on ebay as African. What you have to keep in mind it that the Spanish conquest would not change all aspects of culture over night. It would take decades to reach every community that had craft activity. Local forms of expression in manufactures would have continued for perhaps centuries. Here is a picture of the pot I cost very little so if it is fake or repro I do not mind, but as I say it would not have to be from the 1500s to be genuine. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th May 2015 at 09:41 AM.

9th May 2015, 10:38 AM	#6
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Looks great to me. Patina and wear is as you would expect, at one point it has been totally cleaned chemically of all the original patina and then aquired another old one. To me it looks as if one spike was damaged a long time ago, presumably on the crest of Pizarro's helmet, and subsequently was cut off to make it look 'neater' not the first time I have seen this. Obviously a long time ago as it is not a sharp cut but worn. It appears to be made from porous cast and hammered copper which again I think is what you'd expect although it's not really my dept. Nice thing! Last edited by ashoka; 9th May 2015 at 11:46 AM.

8th May 2015, 09:36 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	The bronze isn't a problem, because the Andes had bronze since around the 10th century IIRC. I'd be more concerned about things like the relative lack of patina and the clean break on one of the spikes. I'd also be concerned about the provenance, although I'm not familiar with Bolivian and Peruvian antiquities laws. F

9th May 2015, 12:45 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SEE THESE BRONZE AND COPPER MACE HEADS FOR SALE IN AUCTION HOUSES FROM TIME TO TIME. THEY ARE NOT COMMON BUT DO COME IN DIFFERENT SHAPES AND SIZES AND FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES. I DON'T KNOW IF REPLICAS HAVE BEEN MADE OR NOT. BUT SINCE YOU DON'T SEE LOTS OF THEM LIKE THE POPULAR LURISTAN AND CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS PERHAPS THE ODDS ARE BETTER OF GETTING A REAL ARTIFACT. THERE MAY BE A OLD POST WITH PICTURES OF SOME PERHAPS A SEARCH OF PRECOLUMBIAN, MACE OR BRONZE MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. GOOD LUCK

9th May 2015, 04:48 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	How did the break happen? It's not like the Inka or their predecessors had saws, and there's no sign of crystallization. They weren't clumsy metal-smiths, so I doubt it was a bad casting. Was it cut off for some reason, accidentally destroyed by a looter's pick? It's a troubling inconsistency. F

9th May 2015, 11:41 AM	#7
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Thank you all for your opinions. The metal seems to be a bit brighter where the spike is broken, so perhaps it was indeed once sawed off. Is there any person/insitution where it could be appraised first-hand (and not too expensively so?). It is certainly not worth a lot, even if real, but I love everything pre-columbian and this piece just feels "good".