Omani Sayf; markings for ID

Mark · 19th February 2012, 11:09 PM

top right = running wolf?

Here is a thread (thought there was one with more variations of the mark, but I can't find it): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=running+wolf

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th February 2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

top right = running wolf?

Here is a thread (thought there was one with more variations of the mark, but I can't find it): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=running+wolf

Salaams ILIAD AND MARK~ Mark You are right that flailing mass of squigles is indeed our favourite woolf of Passau except it is a copy. The other marks I am looking at ...puzzled. The sword is perhaps the dancer...flexible blade?...long hilt...round tip...?The Omani Sayf from about the 18th C. for the Funoon... not a fighting sword. See thread on all such variants at "Kattara for comments". It normally has a shield with it ... The Terrs.

ILIAD ~ Can we see a full length blade please...? and is this blade fully flexible?
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Iliad · 21st February 2012, 03:41 AM

Hi all,
Thank you for the responses so far. I shall endeavour to add some more pics of the blade, but my photographic skills are limited.
The blade is stained and has slight pitting, but to my inexpert eye appears to have some age. The blade has some minor flexibility, but many swords have slightly flexible blades. The seller claimed that this sword was purchased in Oman by a diplomat who then brought it back to New Zealand.
I hope that this will help.
Brian

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st February 2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
Thank you for the responses so far. I shall endeavour to add some more pics of the blade, but my photographic skills are limited.
The blade is stained and has slight pitting, but to my inexpert eye appears to have some age. The blade has some minor flexibility, but many swords have slightly flexible blades. The seller claimed that this sword was purchased in Oman by a diplomat who then brought it back to New Zealand.
I hope that this will help.
Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ On the subject of what seems like a straight Omani Sayf.

The big thread on this issue is "Kattara for comments" which discusses the main Omani Sayf and Kattara details and origins. Your sword looks like the example at # 1 of that thread.
The markings so far identified are viz;

1. The Passau Woolf copy.
2. Square etching.
3. A zig zag form with rectangular geometry at each end.

The Passau Woolf is as discussed previously.
Square etching occurs on ancient pottery and on textles and wood carved doors dhows etc. I have seen this form on Omani Talisman silver wedding jewellery. It could represent the evil spirits which the silver talisman is protecting the wearer against.
Zig Zag As above and on Khanjar and Sword hilts.

Omani dancing swords tend to be flexible in the full bend through 90 degrees. They are broader than your example. It appears that they were designed into the Omani sphere at around the early 18th C. I believe that your example belongs with a family of weapons emanating in the Red Sea region(Saudia /Yemen and possibly with Ottoman/ Mamluki origins and related thus to Abbasiid and before that Greek. It appears that swords from the Red Sea region have been rehilted on long Omani hilts and given a new Omani Style Scabbard (Muscat is identified as a centre for such practise) and may have been suited up in other places possibly Yemen or Zanzibar. Though your hilt seems relatively fresh say 10 or 15 years old whereas the blade is much older pointing to a probable rework. Has the tang been lengthened and thus an Omani Pommel added ? If it has? therefor it becomes a hybrid. Your sword looks like it had a point and may have been somewhat rounded later..My suggestion is that this is a (Muttrah Souk) hybrid and because of the narrowness in the blade and its stiffness. The Omani straight Sayf dancing blade is very flexible. See on Forum Oman Morrocco or Zanzibar # 26 for a look at Buttins work illustrating about 6 straight blades which look related to yours.

Having said that please do not be put off since your style could be the blade type that, in fact, inspired the Omani Sayf dancing blade in the first place! After all, your sword is a weapon whereas the Omani Sayf dancing sword is not. Please see the discussion at Kattara for comments which is ploughing toward 9,000 hits.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2012, 06:49 PM

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2012, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you very much Ibrahiim! That is great information regarding the perspective on the wolf as a talismanic totem, and better explains the favor toward the Passau wolf representation being used. Interestingly this had become the same purpose for its application on European sword blades, as one of the key elements of 'Passau Art'. It would seem that my observation on the negative characterization of dogs would clearly not include the wolf, and entirely different interpretations. The graphed 'beduh' boxes which typically enclosed talismanic numbers as you note were widely applied in material culture .

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th March 2012, 08:32 PM

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote
Jim[/COLOR]

Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread.

Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied.

Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently.

Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf.

The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se.

Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Devadatta · 4th March 2012, 09:03 PM

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

21st February 2012, 03:41 AM	#3
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Omani Sayf; Markings Hi all, Thank you for the responses so far. I shall endeavour to add some more pics of the blade, but my photographic skills are limited. The blade is stained and has slight pitting, but to my inexpert eye appears to have some age. The blade has some minor flexibility, but many swords have slightly flexible blades. The seller claimed that this sword was purchased in Oman by a diplomat who then brought it back to New Zealand. I hope that this will help. Brian Attached Images

4th March 2012, 08:32 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE= I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe. The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century. This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote Jim[/COLOR] Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread. Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied. Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently. Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf. The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se. Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad ! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th March 2012 at 08:45 PM.

19th February 2012, 11:09 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	top right = running wolf? Here is a thread (thought there was one with more variations of the mark, but I can't find it): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=running+wolf

21st February 2012, 06:49 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions. I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe. The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century. This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture. The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation. With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation. I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts. A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition. All the best, Jim

4th March 2012, 09:03 PM	#9
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above? Thanks!